133 COMMENTS

  1. I’m just gushing at the possibility of having a Creationist as our president–how splendid! Why, we can just throw our children’s science books in the recycling bin now!

  2. Well now, the 1% of our country’s population who live in Iowa have spoken! Let’s just jump straight to the general election with Obama and Huckabee and skip all the time and expense of the other 50 primaries!
    Oh right, New Hampshire. Yes, it is quite significant, isn’t it? Why, they represent a whopping 0.5% of our population! Who best to weed out all the has-beens and never-wills?
    Really, for a nation that proselytizes democracy to the rest of the world, and even imposes it with the barrel of a gun, we are remarkably hypocritical when it comes to disenfranchising large segments of our own people.

  3. appletony –
    Thank you, that pie chart does sum it all up quite nicely. You are funny–such a fart smeller and deep thinker!

  4. Not that anyone cares but I WILL NEVER VOTE as a free American for a man who does not stand fully facing, with his hand over his heart for the American Flag.
    While perhaps a symbol to some, what does his “symbolic non gesture” say when a man who wants to be President actually say about him.

  5. Not that anyone cares but I WILL NEVER VOTE as a free American for a man who does not stand fully facing, with his hand over his heart for the American Flag.
    Nice to see you have your priorities in order, madam.

  6. Is it wehre the hand goes or where the mind and morality are that is important when we eventually find who will be running for President?
    Anyone can stick his/her hand anywhere!
    I have yet to look at the pie chart…I will.

  7. I noted the rather prominent placement of advertising before this item. Not the most reassuring of harbingers for the years to come whoever wins those primaries.
    Croiagusanam, patriotism may be the last refuge of scoundrels (Audie Murphy among many others might disagree), but a certain form of “I feel your pain” liberalism is often the first or second. As best exemplified by the collective insincerity of the Clintons, Kucinich and Edwards.

  8. I agree that the insincerity is apparent, but I don’t even hear the lip service from Romney, Rudy, et al. Mitt in particular looks like the kind of guy who wouldn’t slow down to brush your teeth off his windshield after he ran you over (though he would pull over to cry after hearing that balcks were finally allowed to participate in that wacky faith of his).
    Lack of sincerity is evident across the board and even, I would suggest, with those who stand fully facing the flag and wear them in their labels. It doesn’t really say much to me at all about someone’s patriotism or lack of it when a label pin is the measuring stick.

  9. “Anyone can stick his/her hand anywhere!”
    Or their cigar.
    As Pork Roll so eloquently puts it above, Iowa doesn’t tell the whole story, nor does New Hampshire. A lot can happen in 10 or 11 months.

  10. I want Mike Huckabee. I don’t want a president who prays to a red, white and blue false idol, I want them to get on their knees for Jesus. Of course they can pretend to be devoted to a secular symbol, but when alone they better be telling our Christ Lord Savior Leader and Master that they are sorry. I want the prince of no gays, creation science and wars to running things. More bible presidents!

  11. Croiagusanam, while I’m no great fan of Mormon doctrine (though I like the idea of remaining sexually active on my own planet in the afterlife, and with, woo hoo, more than one “heavenly mother”) even to describe Presbyterianism, Seventh Day Adventism or Catholicism to, say, ostensibly primitive tribesmen recently located in the reaches of the upper Amazon is to indulge in wackiness.
    As for a certain candidate’s behavior during the Anthem or the Pledge of Allegiance, it strikes me as gimmicky. It’s the sort of thing urged on kids by their way too leftist parents, which in the end accomplishes nothing save that the poor kid gets a lot of crap from classmates. “Paris is worth a Mass,” you know?
    In Malta, during the playing of its anthem during ceremonies at the turn of the Millennium, I saw more than one local cuffed by his fellow citizens for what they deemed “disrespect.” Good ole citizen action, in a sense.

  12. It’s the sort of thing urged on kids by their way too leftist parents, which in the end accomplishes nothing save that the poor kid gets a lot of crap from classmates.
    I stood but never recited the pledge and never heard a word from classmates.
    You wrote that it’s “gimmicky” to pay attention to what someone does during the pledge, but then you criticized people who don’t do what you want them to do during the pledge. Way to talk out of both sides of your mouth. You’re not Mitt Romney, are you?

  13. It’s nice to see the established old guard hacks of both parties get pushed aside. Even if it doesn’t last, the idea that hyperpartisanship does NOT have to rule the process is refreshing. The bitterest partisans will now rally with the usual tactics — we’ll see if the masses can be browbeaten back in line or whether a basic message of optimism can win out over fearmongering and pointing at the other party like they are the enemy rather than fellow citizens.
    Note: My preferred candidate policy-wise is a bit of a zealous nutjob without presidential bearing or presence (Ron Paul), so I’ll have to face reality and hope that optimistic, non-divisive candidates will succeed. I think that specific policies matter less in a president than clarity of positive attitude and an ability to speak.

  14. Well, true. It reminds me of Peter Hoeg’s observation that “any race of people that allows itself to be graded on a scale designed by European science will appear to be a culture of higher primates.”
    That being said, are all cultures equally “advanced” in terms of thinking and reflecting on their own origins and purposes? You tell me.
    Certainly maintaining that a divine child can be born of a virgin mother sounds as wacky, on its face, as the angel Moroni and the buried tablets. But Mormonism seems especially out there to me (again, I’m hardly unbiased). And I think, if polls are to be believed, most Americans see it up there with Scientology. Nice choir, though!
    I never understood the flag thing. We all know that these guys are Americans. We all know that they love their country. What is the point of the flag in the lapel? Does any other country in the world feature this — at least since Mao passed on and the red starred cap fell out of fashion?

  15. Ok, so you have your choice between a “Bible” presidential candidate versus a presidential candidate who was raised in a Madrassa and who tried to conceal his Muslim heritage. Not an enviable choice in my opinion.

  16. That your classmates did not take action, bfblahs, disappoints me somewhat. In any event, it seems to have strengthened your considerable sense self-righteousness, you manage to “harrumph” piggishly even as you type in a period. And, rather, I wrote that it was “gimmicky” to so publicly act as a certain canddiate does during the Pledge. Allow me, then, to sputter at your lack of readong comprehension from both sides of my mouth.
    Croiagusanam, I know a fair bit about Mormonism and believe you me, Moroni and the tablets is just the beginning of what strikes most non-Mormons as utter rot. (There is loads of wonderful nuttiness in Mormon theology, the problem is that the LDS Church has never codified it in one easily available volume, unlike, say, the Balttimore Catechism.) But it is also a uniquely American sort of faith, founded on the virtues of self-reliance, hard work family, so I end up liking Mormons (even though I don’t remotely see them as fellow Christians). I don’t much believe the polls that paint them as akin to Scientologists in the minds of others, either. Mormons are far more neighborly and pose no danger to our Republic, unlike Ton Cruise’s “faith.”
    As for the lapel flag thing, I believe that stems from the former practice of Secret Service and FBI agents to identify each other in crowds by such pins. It spread, to the best of my recall, to politicians afterward, about the time that ear microphones instead came into use by those agents.

  17. MM — Obama moved to Hawaii at age 10 and attended and graduated from the Punahou School, a very tony private school with no religious affiliation (save for a strong traditional Hawaiian spiritual “theme”). From there he went to Columbia (and I’m sure cathar would blanch to hear that university described as a madrassa) and then Harvard Law.
    These kinds of wacky allegations really serve to muddy the waters. If you don’t like him, fine. There are plenty of reasons to find fault with his views. But stop making him out to be some sort of undercover Khalid Sheik Mohammed.

  18. Miss Marta, your attempts to smear Obama by tainting him as a big, bad Muslim expose you as a know-nothing follower of Rush, Hannity, and other, similar smear merchants. The Madrassa story was debunked about fifteen seconds after FoxNews aired it. And Obama has never tired to hide his heritage — he’s written a book about it, for crying out loud. You know what books are, don’t you?

  19. Miss Martta, I feel your pain, having been slapped down a couple of times myself.
    For your pennance you must run to your heart’s content this weekend!

  20. And appletony, since I generally see you as a bukwark of good political sense, I’m very disappointed to read that you lean towards Ron Paul. Based on your postings (which is all I have to go on, of course), you’re the last person I might have imagined supporting the candidate of those who wish the results of the Civil War reversed and apologies made to the Axis nations for the gross mistake of our entry into WWII. Really, I read lrc.com daily, and all I have picked up from Ron Paul’s libertarian supporters there is that they are anti-tax, pro-drugs and somewhat crazy in that they rue the general course of American history over the last 150 years or thereabouts. (How all but the many reverends from wee non-denominational churches who write there deal with Paul’s resolute antiabortion stance is also quite cloudy.)

  21. Sorry, but the “raised in a madrassa” shtick is tired and ugly. It should be pretty clear that Obama has more respect for women, gays and, generally, people who disagree with him than the average Iowan Evangelical Christian voter does. Obama doesn’t doubt evolution.
    Do you really think he’s some kind of Manchurian Candidate for Islam?

  22. Bfblahs: Apparently you–and some others–have a reading comprehension problem. You do know what reading is, dontcha? I never referred to Obama as a “radical Muslim.” Please direct me to that quote and I will eat my words. But, unlike Huckabee, Romney, etc., who are upfront about their respective faiths, Obamas’ remains nebulous. Sure, he calls himself a “Christian” (as do many prison inmates looking for a reprieve) but merely because it is advantageous while running for the office of the President.
    If you’re in love with him and his politics, fine. You are welcome to vote for him. But I am welcome to vote for my choice as well.

  23. If you’re going to chide me for my typos, bfblahs, you could at least spell them “correctly” when you retype them yourself.
    Croiagusanam, I would in fact characterize Columbia as a madrassa of sorts. Of deepest, most foolish liberalism. But I may have to rethink that since, at a basketball game, I recently met a priest who’d graduated from Princeton, who proudly also informed me that his brother, who’s also of clergy, graduated first from Columbia. Yet another reminder of how mysteriously the Lord works, I suppose.

  24. cathar, if you look back you’ll see that I was pointing out that he’s my closest candidate “policy-wise” and also that he’s a “nutjob.” I’ve never hidden my serious (small “l”) libertarian streak on these boards. I am deeply in favor of less government and more individual liberties, so whom else in the pack might I point to?
    That said, he doesn’t have the makings of a president and his fervent supporters are as weird as Kucinich’s and Keyes’ (and seem to include both).

  25. Wow, Miss Martta –
    I expected a little more from you than to spout such falsehoods about Obama being an undercover radical Muslim–sheesh. Are you so blinded by your hatred of Democrats to believe any kind of crazy bullshit about a candidate?
    Re: how crucial it is for a presidential candidate to cover his heart while pledging allegiance to the flag, this video sums it up quite well, I believe.
    https://www.theonion.com/content/video/poll_bullshit_is_most_important

  26. Madrassa is simply the arabic word for any type of school. ANY. He coudl have gone to clown school in Indonesia and it would still be called a Madrassa.
    Wow if there is this much ignorance in Baristaville, Obama doesn’t have a chance to take the rest of this country in decline.

  27. It’s useless to engage you, but I did not say you called him a “radical Muslim,” which, since you used quotes, you indicated I did. YOU, however, said he “tried to conceal his Muslim heritage,” and the implication is clear: Obama is Muslim (even when you acknowledge he is Christian, you qualify it my saying he “call himself ‘Christian’” – love those scare quotes!).
    Barack Obama is not Muslim. Wouldn’t matter if he were, but he is not. He is Christian. Not sure what he has to do to prove it to people like you, but I have a feeling nothing would be good enough.
    One more thing – I am hardly in love with him. I think he’s overrated. But I do find it repulsive that people like you try to scare away voters from him by implying that he’s secretly Muslim.

  28. Sularu: Why do you expect more from me? Sheesh? You sound like my old 5th-grade teacher rebuking me for playground antics.
    And I never used the word radical. That’s your word.
    Unless you’ve been living in a cave for the past 5 years, you know that I am politically conservative and am unlikely to embrace any of the current Democratic candidates. The key word here is “current.” Show me a Dem who believes in less govt., lower taxes and tight homeland security/border control and I might be tempted to vote for him or her. But that day has not yet arrived.

  29. The problem, appletony, is that however appealing he may come off, Ron Paul also comes freighted with the appalling ideological baggage that his most perfervid supporters buy into (and he seems to buy into as well), no matter how well he otherwise stacks up “policy-wise.”
    I therefore hazard the guess that you’ll never really vote for him even as a minority party candidate.

  30. Show me a Dem who believes in less govt., lower taxes and tight homeland security/border control and I might be tempted to vote for him or her.
    Show me a viable Republican who believes this. They’ve lost all credibility with spendthrift behavior and massive increases in government size and control — all posturing in order to retain control of our tax dollars.

  31. Right on, appletony! Republicans had control of the Presidency And Congress for a majority of the past ten years, and yet you still complain about big government, high taxes, and border security. I don’t recall Democrats filibustering any tax bills or border security legislation. If those things are still problems after all these years, Republicans have no one to blame but themselves.

  32. Appletony, you don’t have to vore dem to get what you want. You forget that you can WRITE IN Bush, your last two presidential choices, or the members of the last Republican Congress. Although their legacy is that we now have to pay for two countries instead of just the USA should be overlooked by you. Although there has been massive social program spending on country 2, (schools, food, housing, ect.), it may well decline under the next Republican president. And Bush and the Republicans did shore up and secure the borders. Bush spread the Homeland security money so the red states would get comparable money to the blue, so the border in Iowa is plenty secure. Don’t worry, your choice for president does not believe in raising taxes. That issue can be delayed until a dem iis elected and feels the need to pay our credit card bills.

  33. My pocket English-Arabic dictionary lists six words for “school,” while the online site I usually use lists eight, three of which are not in my printed book. Regardless, “madrassa(h)” has today a specifically anti-Western and fundamentalist connotation. And in at least one Arabic weekly out of Paterson that I’ve seen, “madrassas” are in a quite separate category in its classifieds than “merely” schools offering instruction in Arabic.

  34. Give me a break, MM–you’re just backtracking with stating you never called him a “radical Muslim” as if your comment meant no harm–what exactly were you trying to imply with stating he “was raised in a Madrassa?”
    Of course I know that you don’t like Democrats (not that I stay up at night contemplating your personal political beliefs or anything) because you post ad nauseum about your conservative political views.
    Of course, you do have a right to express your opinion ad nauseum, but at least get your facts straight before posting.

  35. “…Jesse Jackson won 11 primaries in 1988…”
    Interesting. There were no presidential primaries in the US in 1988.

  36. I therefore hazard the guess that you’ll never really vote for him even as a minority party candidate.
    Correct, but not based so much on the guilt-by-association effect of his wacko supporters, but more because I think he would suck as a president. When faced with the choices in the last gubernatorial election, however, I did vote for the radical pothead — so please realize that I’m undecided at this point and likely to vote for the candidate with the least smell of political machinery and “anyone-but-X” fearmongering rising from their political machine.
    Brinew2, I don’t quite get your post through all the seething partisanship — the seething partisanship that I hope will fade for a while along with the fading of Hillary. You won’t win votes by hitting people over the head and screaming that they are morons for not voting your way. That kind of behavior is what brought people to face the utterly mediocre Bush-Kerry choice.

  37. Don’t vote dem, appleonly. One other wasteful thing a dem will do is they will make army and national guard members stay here, instead of being sent to give their life for the great Nation of Iraq, or the Great New Nation of Iran, where they are really needed. There were about 3000 soliers who the democrats wanted to waste at their useless posts in Alaska. On the upside, the Republicans did significantly reduct their tax burden, and it wasn’t reduced at the expense of their children, either.

  38. Sularu: I thought we had a truce. Guess I should have counted my fingers after shaking hands with you, figuratively, of course.
    And isn’t it a Pot-Kettle thing here when you accuse me of spouting my conservative beliefs? But it’s OK for you to bloviate YOUR political views as much as you like? Why is that?
    And please, I am still waiting for you to point out my reference to “radical Muslim.” (Madrassa/school is not the same thing, sorry).

  39. MM — I’m not sure if you’re being disingenous when you say that you never called Obama a radical Muslim. Madrassas are not the same thing as schools, they are schools where only religious instruction is offered. No other subjects are taught. And for the most part, this instruction follows a strong anti-Western line. so in saying that he was “raised” in a madrassa you are saying he is a radical or extreme Muslim. That is what comes out of madrassas.

  40. And lets get rid of bitter partisanship. I will go by the example of conservatives on this issue. I especially admire the non-partisan approach to Hillary. Conservatives never say they don’t like her, they examine her position on the issues. And if Obama says he is a Christian, they just take him at his word.

  41. Your comparison of Obama and Huckabee on religion is ridiculous, Miss M. Huckabee is a preacher with strong support from evangelicals. Obama is a very different, far more secular, creature.

  42. According to polls, 8 out 10 of Huckabee supporters in Iowa identify themselves as “evangelicals.” I hope the republicans nominate him for president, as I get the feeling that the rest of the US is pretty tired of their schtick.

  43. Actually, I am conservative. I think a drive down Rt. 21 to see the destroyed housing projects should be a mandatory voter education. But the Republican party has been hijacked by hawks and Jesus freaks. They run the country right now, and their issues reign, not fiscal conservatism. Voters have to move beyond dem/repub to get our non-ideolog country back.

  44. I am not a conservative, but I certainly do not like Hillary. I do not like the tactics she uses. I do not like the people she surrounds herself with (goes hand-in-hand with the tactics, obviously). I do not like her appearance (to me) of being nothing more than an embodiment of partisan ambition for office.
    Bottom line: I can see myself voting for Obama even though I disagree with many, many of his policies — it’s not all about policy at this point, it’s about attitude to me. I simply can’t see myself voting for Hillary any more than you would ever vote for Bush. I would hope that some of the people who would crawl through hot coals to vote against Bush might realize that putting up a similarly divisive candidate is not going to be productive — last night’s result gives me some hope of that.
    And before knee-jerking about how awful the Republican tactics are, I have to say that I take joy in seeing their evangelical golem rising right now from the muck — it will either be defeated or it will result in the last reasonable East-Coast-Style voters leaving the ever-smaller Republican tent.

  45. It amazes me that people believe every political email that pops into their inbox. I don’t want to pile on but it needs to be made clear that both the madrassa story and pledge of allegence story are invented propaganda and have been debunked in multiple mainstream venues.
    Like others have said above, Obama is not my guy, but let’s address the issues and try to filter out the bull.

  46. I’m a Democrat, and I am voting for Obama. Hillary not only voted for the Iraq war, she voted with LIEBERMAN to start laying the groundwork for Bush to bomb Iran.

  47. I would like Rudy G.
    Huckabee? Never ! He would not represent all the people, only the very religious evangelical White Christians.
    Actually I’d like to see Rudy with a Veep of Joe Liberman.

  48. I hope the republicans nominate him for president, as I get the feeling that the rest of the US is pretty tired of their schtick.
    I take joy in seeing their evangelical golem rising right now from the muck — it will either be defeated or it will result in the last reasonable East-Coast-Style voters leaving the ever-smaller Republican tent.

    I agree with everything appletony said in his last post, except I do not enjoy the sight of this golem. I want to see it dead. I would much rather have a difficult choice to make in ’08 — say, between Obama and McCain — than see another Bible thumper on the ballot appealing to our most base instincts and the fundamentalist fringe. Even if it means the possibility of another Republican president (horrors!). Oh, what a joy to be truly conflicted over which party’s candidate to vote for. That’s something we should all pray for (speaking figuritively).

  49. I agree, Apple-T: I spent eight years in Arkansas and know a lot of people who knew Bill & Hill, and almost to a person blind political ambition (and the insecurities that spawn it) is their operative word for that duo. Why did Hillary put up with Bill’s sexual shenanigans practially from the day they were married? Because she is a soft-hearted creature with a vision that all people are filled with goodness, if you can just somehow nudge it out of them? They don’t teach that at Wellesley — or at white-shoe law firms. I am now curious to see how New Hampshire treats her. Normally, they can spot a phony from afar, but the southern and most populous parts of the state are now really suburbs of Boston and are more subject to the political antics that Massachusetts is famous for. I don’t think they will like Hillary or Two-Buck-Huck. Ex-Governor Romney is also a well-known “flatlander” in those parts. Could John McCain possibly win both the Republican and Democratic primaries?

  50. The Golem that Rabbi Loew created, walleroo, supposedly lies in the dust in the attic of the “Old Synagogue” in Prague.
    Perhaps you might do us all a favor by verbally consigning to a similar fate the Christian right wing “golem” you and a few others conjure up as a distinctly Republican kind of spectre rising to run for President.
    It is not the contents of the Bible which appeals to our baser instincts, after all, but rather how some twist said contents to their own ends. That applies, equally, however, to the evangelicals now backing Huckabee and to the frothers found, for example, misquoting the good Book on the Huffington Post. Hillary herself, too, is fond of hiding behind the particular interpretation of the Bible. her own Methodism revels in (which would likely appall John Wesley).
    My own take on all this is that a candidate seriously committed to the injunctions found in the Bible might be a good thing for us all. In the absence from American politics of any such candidate, however, to particularly characterize the Republicans as prone to the “sins” and “evils” of evangelicalism is grossly unfair. Besides, the Golem by and large was a gentle, protective sort. Unlike, say, the left wing God that the Berrigan brothers seem to worship.

  51. MM –
    Sure, we have agreed to disagree in the past. And I disagreed with your posting of false information about Obama that was meant solely to besmirch him. (And I don’t think I was the only one.)
    Yes, I am a registered Democrat but I’m not a diehard (even married a Republican) and I don’t think I have “bloviated” my political opinion much on this site, but, that’s neither here nor there.
    You win, though: you did not say “radical Muslim” but one doesn’t have to stretch her imagination much to elucidate what you were implying especially when you use Madrassa in the same sentence.
    This seething partisanship that has already begun to run rampant is such a downer.

  52. I am actually registered as an Independent. I vote for the person and the not the party. And yes, the people I’ve voted for in the last few elections have been Republicans because they best espoused what I seek in a President. If I could build a Perfect Candidate using some magical computer software, I would. I would take all the qualities I like in each candidates and plug them into one persona. But I live in the real world and can’t do that so I have to contend with picking someone who shares maybe 8 out of the 10 qualities on my list.

  53. The first Black American to win a major step in the primary process and the Democrat Party and the media haven’t championed it? Why? This is the party that stands up for the Black community, and the plight of the black-man, so it shouldn’t be DEAD SILENT regarding the significance of Obama’s victory.
    It seems to me that all Democrats should dump Hillary and all rally behind this articulate, educated (Sen. Biden’s words) African American. Unless you don’t like it when you personally are called on to put your money where your mouth is.

  54. Oh, and one more thing…
    The majority of Iowa women rejected Hillary and that was even with Bill by her side.
    What’s up with dat?

  55. Pitbull, there are plenty of reasons for a Dem not to support Obama other than that he’s African American (including, ignobly perhaps, that he is African American, and may wind up being unelectable). And how can you say the media haven’t championed him? Have you read the newspapers and news Web sites today? Obama is everywhere.
    As for being committed to the injunctions found in the Bible, which ones might those be, cathar? There are so many injunctions in The Book, most of them barbaric and utterly ridiculous. Which ones do you pick and choose?

  56. Obama doesn’t win any extra points from me because he black. If he doesn’t perform he is subject to the same rules and criticisms as anybody else.

  57. …the Democrat Party and the media haven’t championed it?
    It’s been spoken to a LOT. But, if by “championing” it, you mean injecting an overtone of race-hustling politicking a la Sharpton and much of the Clinton machine, I think you’re not seeing it because Obama doesn’t adopt that approach himself — he clearly speaks to hope and inclusiveness over complaints and victimization.
    There’s nothing wrong with either side giving up some rock-hard convictions about what the other side is like.

  58. The first Black American to win a major step in the primary process…
    a) What happened last night wasn’t a primary.
    b) Jesse Jackson won 11 primaries in 1988, as was noted earlier. Just because you don’t like Jackson doesn’t mean he didn’t do it.
    c) If you take a look around, you’ll find plenty of Democrats cheering Obama’s victory. Almost everyone who voted for him was a Democrat, after all.

  59. however, to particularly characterize the Republicans as prone to the “sins” and “evils” of evangelicalism is grossly unfair.
    When was the last time you heard anyone refer to “left-wing evangelicals?” They are part of the republican base, which TurdBlossom admitted many times.
    Besides, the Golem by and large was a gentle, protective sort.
    Protective of what? The right of a bunch of self-identified moral arbiters to tell us how to live? Protective of people who would substitute religion for science in our schools?

  60. pit, are you suggesting that dems who don’t vote for Obama are hypocrites, because that means they don’t want a black president? Wouldn’t voting FOR him because he is black be just as racist as voting AGAINST him because he is black? Are dems required to support any black candidate who comes down the road? Are women required to vote for any woman, ragardless of what she may or may not offer in the way of policies or programs?
    Your point is, no offense, absurd.

  61. “Wouldn’t voting FOR him because he is black be just as racist as voting AGAINST him because he is black?”
    No.
    Are the older women who voted in large blocks for Hillary sexist? Or the religious folks who voted for Huckabee religists (or something like that..)?
    (Now please let me get back to Brittany… She’s in the hospital!!!!)

  62. Hmm, I donno, prof. It would certainly be discriminating on the basis of race. What you mean, I think, is that it’s a particular type of racism that you happen to approve of.
    Voting for Hillary because she’s female would indeed be sexist.

  63. As usual prof, your idiocy shines through.
    Yes, if older women voted for Hillary solely because she is a woman, they are sexist. If anyone votes for a candidate solely on the basis of sex, religion, whatever, they fit that racist/sexist/etc. definition. My guess is that those women voted for Hillary because they agreed with her AND the fact that she is a woman is a nice added touch.
    But I don’t expect you to understand that, as you are incrediably dim. Now, you should head back to the site where others of your intellectual caliber congregate — the one you so thoughtfully cited.

  64. The right of a bunch of self-identified moral arbiters to tell us how to live?
    “This question cuts both ways,” thought the chain-smoking woman on the way to the gun range in her SUV that she paid for with profits from sales of untested dietary supplements.

  65. Mike91…your statement below
    “The right of a bunch of self-identified moral arbiters to tell us how to live?”…doesn’t that perfectly describe the self-righteous liberal creators of the politically correct movement? Somewhere and somehow the sycophants of the 60’s liberal revolution decided that they inherited the moral high ground to tell people in the 1990’s what was acceptable to say, think and espouse…remember tipper and her censorship of albums? the whole liberal entitlement mentality has got to be stopped…what’s the difference between your holier than thou political correctness and the right wing bible thumpers?

  66. There appears to be no shortage on either the right or the left of people who love to tell others how to live, what to eat, who to sleep with, what to read, etc. etc. To suggest that this closemindedness is the exclusive province of either left or right is ridiculous — its everywhere. Meet the new boss — same as the old boss.

  67. You know cro, while I enjoy our back and forth, you are too quick to move to personal attacks.
    I’ve called you on this before and it’s upsetting that rather than attack an argument first, your first inclination is to attack the person (something you do to others on this board).
    So while you may disagree with my point(s), your continued inability to communicate in a civil manner is disheartening.
    But as the kids say, whatever man…..

  68. So my Italian American friend from the Y who told me he hopes he’ll have the opportunity to vote for an Italian American for President (Rudy) is a racist?
    And the self described Jewish fellow a few lockers down, who said the same about Bloomberg?
    (BTW, love the Y in the AM, some great conversation.)

  69. Prof: I think the point is that a person’s ethnicity/race/sex should NOT be the deciding factor when voting. I would think that most people want the best person for the job, period. A man who refuses to vote for a woman based on the fact that she’s a woman is just as bad as a woman who votes for a woman purely based on her sex.

  70. Iceman –
    I’m not being facetious here, honestly, but can you elaborate a bit? I’d like to understand your view a bit more. The Tipper thing was about her discomfort with her daughter listening to the Purple Rain album by Prince. I agree that it was silly but you don’t think the far right has reservations about censorship? They think Harry Pottery is about devil worship.
    But what other political correctness are you referring to? Is it something along the lines of referring to somebody as Asian instead of Oriental?
    Is your anger re: the green movement (you bad SUV drivers you)?

  71. Understood. But when you have NEVER had the chance to vote for a person who looks like you, was raised like your or shares your religion (as no other candidate has), I cannot subscribed to the idea that they are discriminating, racist, sexist or anything else.
    This single point is what many in the majority (men included) fail to realize.

  72. prof, so sorry if you’re disheartened. You may view my posts as personal attacks, but I can assure you that they are simply reactions to a smugness, an intellectual weakness, and an all around buffonery that you exhibit on a regular basis. Even the idea that you think that you have “called” me on anything speaks to your delusionary bent.
    But anyway, I’m curious as to how many blacks were “raised just like” Obama? Do you know any? You know, Indonesia and Hawaii and Kenya and all of that? Are you suggesting that all blacks share a common experience? All Italians? All Jews?
    My advice for one who so consistently finds him/herself on such shaky ground would be to retreat, but not you — you beat on, boats against the current, borne back ceaselessly into the past.

  73. Wow. Chile’s president is a woman, an atheist, a single mom and a doctor. This former “banana replubic” that had it’s fledgling democracy crushed by a CIA led coup in “73 (on 9/11 olddly enough)has managed to grow up and move into this century. If even here in Baristaville we’re still name calling based on color, religion, age, sex and labels like conservative and liberal… well it’s just embarassing.

  74. Sularu,
    I am and have always been a first amendment advocate. I hate censorship no matter what political or religious banner it is carried under. Don’t tell me I should call a group asian or oriental or african american or black or negro cause it’s the politically correct flavor ot the month. It’s America..we have the right ‘to’ as well as ‘from’ (i’m sure Appletony will tell me where our rights have been abrogated through the courts) but I’m a strict constructionist like the idol of my college days…the supreme court justice William O’Douglas people say stupid things well, it’s there right as a free speaking American. Freedom of speech is freedom of speech..except those cases like yelling ‘fire’ in a crowded theatre.
    Do I wish people didn’t use words like nigger and bitch and kike etc…absolutely. I would never use them and don’t. But when you start allowing censorship to slowly creep in then every group is demanding their say and pretty soon it’s mind control. A bit of hyperbole I know but I believe in the free market place of ideas a believe that our citizenry is smart and sensitive enough to sanction bad speech on their own.
    I’m losing my toe grip on the soap box so I better let go.

  75. Total Voter Turnout (approximate)
    356,000
    Percentage of total vote
    24.5% Obama
    20.5% Edwards
    19.8% Clinton
    11.4% Huckabee (R)
    Buh-bye, GOP…R.I.P.

  76. Freedom of speech is freedom of speech..except those cases like yelling ‘fire’ in a crowded theatre.
    The first amendment is a guarantee that the government won’t infringe on your right to say something. As far as I know, no one has argued to make it illegal to use “Oriental” over “Asian.”
    Political Correctness: The New Puritanism
    Oh there’s plenty of the old kind still about.

  77. As far as I know, no one has argued to make it illegal to use “Oriental” over “Asian.”
    Legislatures and other government bodies at all levels propose speech codes and other direct forms of censorship pretty frequently. You may be technically correct re Oriental/Asian, but you’re otherwise far off regarding blatant attempts to limit free speech. It’s not a left/right thing, either — it’s a power thing.

  78. Legislatures and other government bodies at all levels propose speech codes and other direct forms of censorship pretty frequently.
    No, I don’t think they do. Other than the failed “academic freedom” legislation, there’s no reference to any on google. Universities tend to propose these things more readily, and with differing results, but they’re not the government.

  79. Walleroo, your perhaps core anticlericalism is showing. It is in fact overflowing from your pouch. You and I both know “which” Biblical injunctions can and should be taken seriously, don’t start playing Christopher Hitchens with me, you’re much smarter than him anyway, I’m sure.
    Mike91, you really should watch your phrasing, since what you posted about the Golem (do you in fact know anything about the Golem of legend, even?) could less charitably be construed as a form of anti-Semitism. One thing in evangelicals’ favor, after all, is their unswerving support for the state of Israel’s right to exist (and whatever their own reasons). As opposed, by contrast, to those on the left who, the farther left one goes, are quite willing to abandon the doughty nation as it suits their politics, dreams of “diversity,” etc. It is of course even worse in European politics, but it’s bad enough here in America.
    The threat of evangelical Christians is an absolute straw man, posited here by people who likely know very little indeed about the genuinely broad span of evangelical beliefs. They are certainly not the sort of bogeymen with which to terrify the children hereabouts of good, stoutly liberal parents, and to do so is an unfortunate form of bigotry mostly found in extremely liberal precincts.

  80. Buh-bye, GOP…R.I.P.
    Yeah, well, not so fast. The 356,000 people who caucused in Iowa represent only about 1/10th of the population of the United States (i.e., 0.1%), an infinitesimally small (and hardly random or representative) sampling of our nation.
    It ain’t over till it’s over, and this time it really won’t be over until Super Duper Tuesday on February 5th.
    In other news, I am saddened that both Joe Biden and Chris Dodd have already dropped out because the corn-huskers in Iowa apparently didn’t think these guys kissed their asses enough to caucus for them. Based on experience and their Senate leadership, these were probably two of the more objectively qualified candidates for President. Instead, they hand us Obama and Huckabee, two men with very thin resumes – especially in the foreign policy arena – despite their populist appeal.
    Have the last seven years taught us nothing about putting a neophyte into the White House?

  81. As opposed, by contrast, to those on the left who, the farther left one goes, are quite willing to abandon the doughty nation as it suits their politics, dreams of “diversity,” etc. It is of course even worse in European politics, but it’s bad enough here in America.
    Questioning Israel’s right to exist and anti-semitism are two different things. Some population of the first are undoubtably the second, but there are other reasons to criticize Israel other than hatred, not that I subscribe to any of them.
    The threat of evangelical Christians is an absolute straw man,
    Their stated beliefs are different than mine, especially in the area of a woman’s right to choose, the injecting of religion into science, and the role of religion in our secular government. To say that they’re a strawman is to ignore the very concrete steps they’ve taken to implement their beliefs into the lives of people who don’t believe the same way they do.

  82. Mike91, you are wrong. Many universities are either actual arms of the government (what do you think a state university is?) or bound to behave according to requirements of government in order to qualify for federal programs.
    If you think that government bodies don’t routinely attempt to stifle speech, you either know little about the substance contained in “equal time” legislation, campaign finance “reform” legislation, laws to make certain speech per se criminal, censorship codes and even proposed laws to make baggy pants illegal OR you don’t mind those things because they stifle speech you disagree with or promote speech you prefer.
    Although extremely useful, Google is not a legal reference.

  83. As opposed, by contrast, to those on the left who, the farther left one goes, are quite willing to abandon the doughty nation as it suits their politics, dreams of “diversity,” etc. It is of course even worse in European politics, but it’s bad enough here in America.
    Questioning Israel’s right to exist and anti-semitism are two different things. Some population of the first are undoubtably the second, but there are other reasons to criticize Israel other than hatred, not that I subscribe to any of them.
    The threat of evangelical Christians is an absolute straw man,
    Their stated beliefs are different than mine, especially in the area of a woman’s right to choose, the injecting of religion into science, and the role of religion in our secular government. To say that they’re a strawman is to ignore the very concrete steps they’ve taken to implement their beliefs into the lives of people who don’t believe the same way they do.

  84. The mindset of Dubya, cathar, serves well as a case study in the threat of religion in public life. Dubya possesses the certainty of those who have faith even in the presence of disproving facts.

  85. Many universities are either actual arms of the government (what do you think a state university is?) or bound to behave according to requirements of government in order to qualify for federal programs.
    State universities aren’t ‘arms of the government,’ but they are funded by the states that sponsor them. That being the case, its not the government imposing speech codes. Outside of campus, they do not apply.
    you either know little about the substance contained in “equal time” legislation,
    This doesn’t “limit” speech, it forces media outlets to grant equal time to candidates running for office.
    campaign finance “reform” legislation,
    Putting monetary limits on certain political contributions has nothing to do with outlawing “politically correct” speech, which you seem to believe is being encoded into law.
    laws to make certain speech per se criminal,
    Too broad for me to understand what you’re talking about.
    censorship codes
    Again, where is this being proposed, by whom?
    and even proposed laws to make baggy pants illegal
    I suspect that this was on campus of a school, but in any case, did it pass?
    OR you don’t mind those things because they stifle speech you disagree with or promote speech you prefer.
    I still don’t see where you’ve pointed out that the government is limiting speech, especially speech on a “politically correct” basis.

  86. Not only does Dubya possess the certainty of those who have faith even in the presence of disproving facts, his evangelical beliefs drive his foreign policy decisions. I think someone who believes in the rapture (the ulitmate end of the world war between Christians and those pesky infidels, the Muslims – which will take place in Isreal) may not be the most appropriate statesmen to sit in front of the Palestian leadership and tell them he gets his marching orders from God. So don’t tell me we shouldnt worry about the threat of the religiousity of our elected officials.

  87. Not only does Dubya possess the certainty of those who have faith even in the presence of disproving facts, his evangelical beliefs drive his foreign policy decisions. I think someone who believes in the rapture (the ulitmate end of the world war between Christians and those pesky infidels, the Muslims – which will take place in Isreal) may not be the most appropriate statesmen to sit in front of the Palestian leadership and tell them he gets his marching orders from God. So don’t tell me we shouldnt worry about the threat of the religiousity of our elected officials.

  88. State universities aren’t ‘arms of the government,’ but they are funded by the states that sponsor them.
    Courts find them to be bound as government bodies. Especially when they have charters granted by state constitutions.
    This doesn’t “limit” speech, it forces media outlets to grant equal time to candidates running for office.
    That is a limitation of free speech rights. That you can’t see even that simple fact means to me that you are part of the problem.
    You have a completely restrictive and convenient view of what constitutes “speech” and, apparently, “freedom.” Everything that you brush off as not really a limitation just speaks to that.
    Of course, you have the right to say all that stuff!

  89. I feel your pain, prof. It’s really hard to be consistent in language. It requires a lot of thought, which is hard work.

  90. Courts find them to be bound as government bodies. Especially when they have charters granted by state constitutions.
    So, in my house in Bloomfield, I have to abid by MSU’s speech code (if they have one)?
    That is a limitation of free speech rights.
    How is it a limitation, if it actually forces media outlets to publish more speech?
    You have a completely restrictive and convenient view of what constitutes “speech” and, apparently, “freedom.”
    And you still haven’t supplied one example of politically incorrect speech being “illegal.”

  91. It’s fascinating that appletony, whom I imagine to be a stuffy old lawyer, age 60, probably with a big pot belly and a taste for cigars, is arguing that the US govt limits speech freedoms, and here is Mike91, whom I imagine to be a freewheeling young’un in tattered jeans, is taking the opposite argument. I guess old stereotypes don’t mean that much after all.

  92. So, in my house in Bloomfield, I have to abid by MSU’s speech code (if they have one)?
    Of course not. That’s a question of jurisdiction, not the first amendment.
    How is it a limitation, if it actually forces media outlets to publish more speech?
    For two reasons:
    1) forced speech is a violation of free speech and
    2) it will necessarily be content-driven in application — restrictions on speech based on its content is constitutionally extremely weak.
    And you still haven’t supplied one example of politically incorrect speech being “illegal.”
    When did I propose to do so? I said “Legislatures and other government bodies at all levels propose speech codes and other direct forms of censorship pretty frequently.” I have given examples of that. If you want more detail, maybe you should attend law school. I found it to be a worthwhile endeavor, especially when questions about law come up.

  93. OK, to be less glib:
    A good overview of first amendment issues summarized by category and specifically extracting broad findings of the Supreme Court may be found at this link.

  94. When did I propose to do so? I said “Legislatures and other government bodies at all levels propose speech codes and other direct forms of censorship pretty frequently.”
    So even though you quoted my Asian/Oriental example, I was just supposed to infer you meant “in general.” Got it.
    If you want more detail, maybe you should attend law school. I found it to be a worthwhile endeavor, especially when questions about law come up.

    “Don’t argue with me, I’m a mandarin! I mean, lawyer!”

  95. When did I propose to do so? I said “Legislatures and other government bodies at all levels propose speech codes and other direct forms of censorship pretty frequently.” I have given examples of that. If you want more detail, maybe you should attend law school. I found it to be a worthwhile endeavor, especially when questions about law come up.
    Posted by appletony | January 4, 2008 5:42 PM
    ————————————–
    Appleman, with respect, you haven’t made your case. You’ve given a couple of equivocal examples & done nothing to establish the “pretty frequently” aspect of your contention.
    This is a point on which I’m certainly willing to listen to reason. Telling folks to go to law school is smug & dismissive. If you have details that the rest of us don’t, please share them. Links are fine; the FindLaw link, while potentially instructive in the area of legal history, doesn’t obviously support your argument.

  96. Yeah, the law school thing was me being a dick. I’m sorry.
    Anyway, I did not “quote you,” I said, “You may be technically correct re Oriental/Asian, but you’re otherwise far off regarding blatant attempts to limit free speech. It’s not a left/right thing, either — it’s a power thing.”
    So I point out that you’re technically correct, but you want me to somehow attack that position or prove some other point?
    You then go on to dismiss what I see as infringements on free speech by pretty much saying without any legal analysis that those examples don’t count. At that point I grew frustrated enough to just be a dick…
    Crank, the legal history revolves around the limitations to free speech that were addressed by the Supreme Court. It’s not mere legal history because the case extracts detail examples of government abridgement of freedom of speech. I’m a free speech absolutist, so I get a bit testy about the subject. Again, apologies to all for being smug and dismissive.

  97. hmmm… I went to post some links for crank (re: anti-baggy pants laws, illegal speech codes and campaign finance “reform” being incrementally struck down as unconstitutional), but the post was snagged “for approval of the blog owner” — maybe the links triggered something?

  98. I don’t want to wade into a discussion about legal matters, since I’m way out of my depth there, but I would like to say to appletony that it is refreshing to see someone apologize and admit to a lapse. Regardless of whether it was or not, it is admirable to see you look at your own behaviour and find reason to self-criticize. You’re man enough to say you were a dick (does that seem obvious — like you’re a dick if you’re a man?) But anyway, fair play to you, appletony. We could all stand some self-criticism from time to time.

  99. Appletony,
    I think that there may be a limit on how many links that you can put into one post. Try making multiple pots with one or two links per post.

  100. appletony, thanks for the effort.
    You’ve always struck me as an articulate fellow & most of what you say is very well reasoned, irrespective of whether I agree.
    Something about these cold January days makes a lot of us testy. I think it got to me too.
    I can google some of these issues when I have time, of course, just thought you might have some more stuff bookmarked.

  101. As far as Southern Baptists go, Mike Huckabee is far better on electric bass than Jimmy Carter ever was.

  102. Well, all 17 registered voters in Dixville Notch, New Hampshire have voted, and the final results are in:
    McCain: 4
    Romney: 2
    Giuliani: 1
    Obama: 7
    Edwards: 2
    Richardson: 1
    Well, there you go. Hillary is sooooo 2007! Obama is the clear favorite. Why bother with any more primaries? Hell, why bother with the general election. The voters of Dixville Notch have spoken!

Comments are closed.