Hunted Deer Flee into Verona Traffic

BY  |  Thursday, Feb 10, 2011 10:28am  |  COMMENTS (144)

UPDATE: County Executive Joe DiVincenzo called Baristanet himself to let us know that while the Deer Management Program was in progress, and Fairview Avenue was closed for safety reasons, there were no shots fired and not one deer culled in Hilltop Reservation today. It seems the deer were elsewhere.

“”The snow is so deep, and there’s no food on the reservations, so the deer cross these streets regularly to enter private yards,” said DiVincenzo. The County Executive reported that he recently saw 8 deer in a yard on Bradford Avenue. “What happened this morning isn’t unusual. We see it all the time.”

He clearly stated that the deer that entered this morning’s traffic on Grove (which our reader witnessed) were not, in fact fleeing hunters — as no shots were fired today at all — but were looking for food. When asked if this situation indicated that there is a need for the county’s deer culling program, DiVincenzo agreed.

“The deer are living on people’s property and they’re starving,” he stated.

Essex County‘s Deer Management Program is in full swing on this sunny February Thursday. While the program’s three locations (South Mountain, Eagle Rock and Hilltop Reservations) are closed to the public on hunt days, there is no rule that says the deer can’t flee for their lives by leaving the designated hunting ground.

For Baristanet reader Amanda, driving by Hilltop Reservation on her way to work this morning brought her face to face with the pursued quarry. She reports that the experience was “soul shattering,” and wonders if others share her feeling and may have had similar commutes.

Due to the deer massacre (“hunt”) happening in Verona/Cedar Grove today and additional days this month, my morning commute was detoured from Fairview to Grove Street in Verona. As I was attempting to make my left hand turn onto Grove, three deer came barrelling down the hill cutting across my car, skidding into traffic – and consequently completely stopped traffic, as they ran in circles for their lives. These poor animals were not only hunted from their homes, they managed to escape the best way the could and ran straight into oncoming traffic.

I was brought to tears by their attempts to save their lives by outrunning the hunters, to have only been sent into a high traffic area where their fates will be indefinitely sealed. How ironic that I rarely see deer up on the hilltop along Fairview as it is, and today I see three deer fleeing. I know some use the arguement that deer are causing collisions and are a safety hazzard – but today was the most hazardous day on the streets of Verona that I’ve seen in years, all due to the hunt. It rattles me that so many people are able to just brush this off without thinking beyond their personal day to day lives and not the unnecessary and inhumane method of number control.

County Executive Joe DiVincenzo has previously said that while the hunt is a very controversial and emotional issue, reducing the number of deer is part of an ongoing initiative by the administration to preserve and restore the forest ecology in Essex County’s open spaces. DiVincenzo has noted that the program is beginning to yield positive results and that the county adapts it to the changing conditions in each reservation.

Has anyone else encountered hunt refugees in traffic? Where does Baristaville stand on the hunt? Take our poll and share your deer encounters in comments.

Photo from Wikipedia.


  1. POSTED BY Nellie  |  February 10, 2011 @ 10:37 am

    This has brought tears to my eyes. They need to look into sterilization. While it is costly, it will reduce the number of deer, eliminating the needs for a hunt every year. A hunt only puts a Band-Aid on the problem.

  2. POSTED BY Mrs Martta  |  February 10, 2011 @ 10:56 am

    I agree. While the herd needs to be thinned, there are more humane ways to do this (see Nellie’s post). As Amanda points out the irony, the hunt is actually creating an unsafe situation (for deer and motorist alike), by forcing deer out onto the roads.

  3. POSTED BY kacey  |  February 10, 2011 @ 11:39 am

    The deer hunt is barbaric.

  4. POSTED BY hrhppg  |  February 10, 2011 @ 11:54 am

    I’ve had that happen to me when there wasn’t a hunt on. It was one of the events that made me accept the hunt as necessary. Seeing that poor creature jumping out onto Eagle Rock Ave – morning traffic- the fear and confusion in it’s eyes- thin enough it see its ribs….I’ve never forgotten it.

    My daily commute is full of the after math of deer verse car. On 280 I’ve driven past the same wolf for 3 days now. No matter which road I take it’s a constant reminder that we aren’t alone in these hills and we aren’t able to share the space. Even the deer near my office where they have backyards to hide in and gardens to eat they are thin and small. They are adorable but the thought of them hungry and right now cold breaks my heart more then the hunt does.

  5. POSTED BY Kevin57  |  February 10, 2011 @ 11:58 am

    Perhaps now that we have accorded them “refugee” status they will feel a little safer!

  6. POSTED BY herbeverschmel  |  February 10, 2011 @ 12:12 pm


    Drive by there in August and the deer are doing the same thing.

    I especially recall the time when I was picking up my kindergartner and their was huge buck with massive antlers walking down the road about 20 feet from 3 6 yr olds (and that was 10 years before the hunt). I’m more concerned with the health and safety of humans then the deer, sorry.

  7. POSTED BY herbeverschmel  |  February 10, 2011 @ 12:13 pm

    In my previous post I meant 30, 6 year olds.

  8. POSTED BY Nellie  |  February 10, 2011 @ 12:23 pm

    But if the herd is thinned through sterilization, you eliminate the number of deer being born, resulting in a more soluble long-term solution. After the hunt, the deer will reproduce again, and we’ll be right back in the same place at this time next year.

    When the Trap-Neuter-Return program was initiated in Montclair, the number of feral cats coming into the shelter was drastically reduced, so fewer needed to be euthanized or placed elsewhere. The same principle would apply to deer sterilization.

  9. POSTED BY rubberchix  |  February 10, 2011 @ 12:32 pm

    Obviously this is an emotional issue for Ms. Parra and others. This is understandable to a degree. If you also eat meat and wear leather goods, I have to wonder about the logic. Baristanet takes every opportunity to fan the controversy.

    The reality is the deer are wandering all over the roads anyway, at all times of the year. Chances are Ms. Parra’s deer sighting had nothing to do with the deer “control”.

    There are too many deer here. Period. They are destroying the vegetation and natural balance of the Reservations. It will only get worse unless the herd is reduced. A good number of deer are probably starving to death now due to the snow. This is a slower more painful death, but Ms. Parra and Baristanet aren’t acknowledging that reality.

  10. POSTED BY argus  |  February 10, 2011 @ 12:43 pm

    Please. They’re deer, not Bambi. Unless you’re a vegan, you contribute to far worse conditions for animals.

    Deer are prey animals. Someone or something should be killing them. Why is their terror from a hunter any worse than terror from wolves or mountain lions?

    If you are going to cry, cry for people in this world who experience far more terror and pain than a damn deer.

  11. POSTED BY Jenn Schiffer  |  February 10, 2011 @ 12:52 pm

    Obviously this is an emotional issue for Ms. Parra and others. This is understandable to a degree. If you also eat meat and wear leather goods, I have to wonder about the logic. Baristanet takes every opportunity to fan the controversy.

    People are not emotionally connected to animal products that they eat and wear, as many do not have the opportunity to see the slaughter happen first hand. In the case of the deer hunt, though, people are seeing it happen (like the reader that submitted this story). Therefore it’s bound to bring up some sort of emotion. Invalidating one’s feelings by questioning the logic of them being upset at watching something die – even if they eat meat and/or wear leather – is unfair.

  12. POSTED BY Nellie  |  February 10, 2011 @ 12:56 pm

    argus, why do you assume that sensitivity to animals negates the same for fellow human beings? Your assertion is a very short-sighted one.

  13. POSTED BY unemploymentgallery  |  February 10, 2011 @ 12:57 pm

    End the Hunt! It’s inhumane and barbaric. These deer have every right to live. There is far too much development in this area- pushing these beautiful animals and others out. What kind of human beings kill? It’s time to evolve. We want our tiny bit of nature ever so perfect. Disgraceful policy.

  14. POSTED BY Karen Banda  |  February 10, 2011 @ 1:03 pm

    Killing animals is always seen as the easy solution, not only for deer but also for homeless animals in so-called animal shelters. It’s disgusting and no amount of rationalization justifies it.

  15. POSTED BY amanda  |  February 10, 2011 @ 1:04 pm

    I have to admit, when I wrote my e-mail this morning I was in fact quite emotional and immediately associated the scurrying deer to the redirection of my morning route a mere minute prior. This was my knee jerk reaction and I do understand the need for control but the means of doing so is what really hit me. As far as being a vegan, while I see some people are unable to separate compassion from animal consumption, I do not consume meat and try to minimize animal byproducts as best as I can personally. Perhaps it touches more of a chord with me because I do feel for these animals suffering and fear of suffering.

  16. POSTED BY rubberchix  |  February 10, 2011 @ 1:10 pm

    The “hunter” is in tree stand shooting down so bullet cannot travel by accident. Deer is shot in head at close range with large bullet. Gone in blink of an eye I would guess. Probably more humane than most slaughterhouses. Definitely more humane than starving to death or being hunted and eaten by wolves or mother nature’s other natural predators.

  17. POSTED BY hansmeier  |  February 10, 2011 @ 1:11 pm

    Venison is delicious! Have you tried it? It’s fantastic in soup, with some veggies a bunch of garlic and onion.

    The fact of the matter is that deer population control is a necessary thing in these parts. Without it, the deer will destroy any and all vegetation lower than 5 feet in height. When we have mild winters, the deer population explodes. If that is followed by a severe winter, many of the deer die of starvation because there’s not enough food left to feed them all.

    People opposed to the deer hunt need to get their heads on straight. It’s not an emotional issue. Nobody *wants* to kill deer. They’re doing it out of necessity. And they’re doing it to *help* the deer.

  18. POSTED BY hansmeier  |  February 10, 2011 @ 1:14 pm

    Perhaps Amanda and the others who oppose the deer hunt will allow the county to erect some fences in their backyards and relocate 50% of the deer population to those backyards. Problem solved!

  19. POSTED BY dane  |  February 10, 2011 @ 1:16 pm

    I can’t help wondering if Ms. Parra would feel the same “soul shattering” experience if instead of deer she had seen rats. Deer in the woods? A nice thing. Lyme disease-carrying animals wandering around suburban neighborhoods? Not so nice (in my book).

  20. POSTED BY Karen Banda  |  February 10, 2011 @ 1:22 pm

    If the deer are killed instantly with a clean shot it is preferable to starving to death. But that’s not always the case. And the stress and fear the others experience, caused by the noise of the guns and smelling the death of other deer, is as inhumane a slaughter houses. There are other solutions. I personally would be thrilled to have deer visit my property. I welcome the racoons, rabbits and other critters that do share my neighborhood with me.

  21. POSTED BY Nellie  |  February 10, 2011 @ 1:27 pm

    Well said, Karen…

  22. POSTED BY rubberchix  |  February 10, 2011 @ 1:30 pm

    Jenn – I do not mean to invalidate anyone’s feeings. I believe compassion for animals is a good thing (when I find insect in my house I catch & release outdoors). I have cared for baby deer stranded in my yard.

    I do view the deer control program as necessary and humane. I am thankful the County is dealing with the problem in a realistic responsible manner. Would prefer there was not so-much hand-wringing over the issue like this article on Baristanet. This only serves to work against doing what needs to be done.

  23. POSTED BY Nellie  |  February 10, 2011 @ 1:33 pm

    rubberchix, but the same thing–with a more permanent solution–cam be accomplished via nonlethal means.

  24. POSTED BY rubberchix  |  February 10, 2011 @ 1:36 pm

    from what I hear that is catching them in a net and giving them a vasectomy or something? sounds terrifying for deer and expensive for taxpayers (sorry if I seem glib here)

  25. POSTED BY unemploymentgallery  |  February 10, 2011 @ 1:42 pm

    ” …It’s not an emotional issue. Nobody *wants* to kill deer. They’re doing it out of necessity. And they’re doing it to *help* the deer.”

    This is the same logic as ‘the only way to PEACE is through WAR’
    – sorry, but evolution is calling… it’s for you.

  26. POSTED BY hansmeier  |  February 10, 2011 @ 1:44 pm

    Catching a deer in a net and giving them a vasectomy? Really? Seriously? Whatever you’re smoking, pass it along please. That’s one of the most insane ideas I’ve ever heard.

    Think about it: at least four, probably six men would be required to handle the net and lift the deer. Then you need a couple of veterinarians to administer the tranq and do the procedure. then the vet has to hang around to make sure the deer recovers. You think all of these people are going to work for free? No way, we’re talking many many many thousands of dollars here.

    Or…get your volunteer hunters to hang out in trees for a few days, provide them with some inexpensive ammunition. Again, problem solved!

    I’m so tired of people who are completely incapable of critical thinking.

  27. POSTED BY Nellie  |  February 10, 2011 @ 2:17 pm

    rubberchix, sterilization has been used in other areas of the country and has been effective. It is a solution that stops new deer from being born, so has the best results, long-term.

    hansmeier, it’s unfortunate that you find someone “Incapable of critical thinking,” simply because he/she offers another option…Sadly, it is your closed mind that is clearly incapable of critical thinking.

  28. POSTED BY Sandy  |  February 10, 2011 @ 2:31 pm

    2 years ago, a woman driving east, having come from Livingston Mall, was on South Orange Avenue in the Livingston section, when a deer came trotting out of the woods, into the street, witness stated less than 12 feet in front of her car….she lost control, – jumped the curb, slammed into a tree and died. I DO NOT recall hearing about her lost life on this site. She was a daughter, a wife and a mother. I believe in PEOPLE FIRST.
    The deer are the biggest threat to safety in these areas where the roads cut thru the wilderness, and besides eating & sleeping their #3 thing is multiplying. 20 years ago you would have seen NONE. No look how many there are. Without the “hunt” (bad terminology) slaughter – more to the point, many more PEOPLE will suddenly lose it all. Push to shove, I’ll vote for the people.

  29. POSTED BY herbeverschmel  |  February 10, 2011 @ 2:33 pm

    I find it interesting that many of the people that find this to be inhumane don’t have the same compassion for an unborn baby.

  30. POSTED BY Nellie  |  February 10, 2011 @ 2:38 pm

    herb, I have the same compassion for an unborn baby.

  31. POSTED BY mathilda1  |  February 10, 2011 @ 2:41 pm

    What started in Tunisa and spread like wildfire to Egypt has now leapt the oceans and continents to our own Eagle Rock. Wherever you go in the world of humans, animals and plants, the masses yearn for liberty.

    We are all deer.

  32. POSTED BY herbeverschmel  |  February 10, 2011 @ 2:44 pm

    That’s nice. Maybe compassion was the wrong term. I should have said :

    I find it interesting that many of the people that find this to be inhumane have little regard for the life of an unborn baby.

  33. POSTED BY Nellie  |  February 10, 2011 @ 3:03 pm

    Well, then let me add that I have much regard for the life of an unborn baby.

  34. POSTED BY deadeye  |  February 10, 2011 @ 3:15 pm

    I saw a group of full grown deer on a front lawn on Park St. between Watchung and Bellevue in the fall. They certainly weren’t fleeing hunters. The issue is that we have lots of deer habitat within the reservations, parks, and golf courses, and NO NATURAL PREDATORS. This is a problem that has been building for some time now, and is not simply an encroachment issue. Apparently the deer population now is larger than it has ever been historically.
    See the attached Cornell University Extension link here:
    What we are seeing is an unintended consequence of conservation measures undertaken decades ago, and a decline of hunting.
    I’m as compassionate as the next guy, but the whole sterilization argument is ludicrous, from both a cost and implementation perspective. Our town doesn’t have two nickels to rub together.

  35. POSTED BY DagT  |  February 10, 2011 @ 3:18 pm

    I was waiting for your comment Mathilda. You never disappoint.

  36. POSTED BY deadeye  |  February 10, 2011 @ 3:21 pm

    Mathilda, Nice to see that the doctors have given you your internet privileges back.

  37. POSTED BY nboney1815  |  February 10, 2011 @ 3:30 pm

    Oh the Humanity!!!!!! I never tire of the entertainment provided by the emoting of angst-ridden bleeding hearts. However, I will say that that this hyper-sensitive mindset of the Modern Anti-Human Leftist is naive and blind. They seem to forget that hunting in one of man’s oldest skill sets. We’ve been doing it since climbing out of the primordial soup. Jesus, WE’RE ON TOP OF THE FOOD CHAIN, PEOPLE!!!!

    We’re human. They’re deer. We win, they lose. Grow up.

  38. POSTED BY Nellie  |  February 10, 2011 @ 3:31 pm

    @those of you who are so against sterilization: What would you prefer: death by gunshot or a vasectomy?

  39. POSTED BY deadeye  |  February 10, 2011 @ 3:37 pm

    Death by Bunga Bunga!

  40. POSTED BY bebopgun  |  February 10, 2011 @ 3:46 pm

    Oh Deer me.

  41. POSTED BY Erika Bleiberg  |  February 10, 2011 @ 3:48 pm

    Please see story update.

  42. POSTED BY Nellie  |  February 10, 2011 @ 3:52 pm

    Good for the deer for going elsewhere. They are smarter than DiVincenzo.

  43. POSTED BY Sandy  |  February 10, 2011 @ 9:45 pm

    Perhaps goining to travel agenceys and getting folders on interesting places to go, and dropping them in and around the resorvations for the deer.

  44. POSTED BY atia2  |  February 10, 2011 @ 10:04 pm

    The only reason there are more deer than people may like is because hunting spurs reproduction – and anyone who disputes it is just plain ignorant or lying!
    If deer had been left alone years ago, and state wildlife agencies hadn’t stepped up to “managing” them for MSY, there would be NO problem today!
    It is disingenuous to cry about starving deer and then pretend to be so damned compassionate and agree with the deer massacre to “save” them – DUH!
    Do we advocate killing starving people to save them? So why would this be logical for deer or any other wildlife?
    I just love how some people bring up totally nonsensical issues: This has nothing to do with abortion, nor Egypt & Tunisia, nor eating meat, nor being a bleeding heart, not being for people first!
    Deer are purposely and artificially managed to procreate at a higher rate, just to create more hunting opportunities for hunters – not to feed them, but for trophies! If deer weren’t “managed”, we’d have fewer deer!
    If anyone wants to lay blame anywhere or on anyone, it should be on the mismanagement of deer in NJ and those wonderful wildlife biologists who know exactly what they are doing, and it ain’t lowering deer populations through hunting!

  45. POSTED BY Hildy Fox  |  February 10, 2011 @ 10:49 pm

    Did anyone even think to ask the deer why they were fleeing? I think we should refrain from drawing any conclusions until all the facts are in.

  46. POSTED BY Right of Center  |  February 11, 2011 @ 12:59 am

    So we are agreed then? Hunting starving deer once every few years – “soul shattering”. Ripping apart human fetuses limb from limb in utero at 393 Bloomfield Avenue EVERY single day – ok.

  47. POSTED BY Spiro T. Quayle  |  February 11, 2011 @ 9:12 am

    Well, ROC, I know that animals have feelings and show love, and are therefore worth keeping alive and well, but I have nothing certain to go on when it comes to fetuses.


  48. POSTED BY ipsofacto  |  February 11, 2011 @ 9:17 am

    We exterminate rats, but cull dear.
    … atia2’s post should be read again.

  49. POSTED BY bebopgun  |  February 11, 2011 @ 9:18 am

    I’ve often thought forced sterilization of some humans might not be a bad thing. Cull the herd of humanns that humanity has already discarded, so to speak.

    Then I feel immense guilt & shame for having those thoughts.

  50. POSTED BY cathar  |  February 11, 2011 @ 9:47 am

    Even by your usual reliably base standards, Spiro, that was an exceptionally dead-sounding and thuddingly witless most recent post from you.

    Oh well, at least you now have some real competition in the realm of verbal awkwardness and idle burbling from Hildy Fox.

    I also noted the seeming “return” above of the poster called “hansmeier.” Is this the same hansie who was warned more than once here about his penchant for unnecessary profanity, who may even have been bounced from this site because of it? If this is all so, can the return of our beloved lasermikey be far behind?

    And mathilda, not only are we all deer now, but we’re also all Tunisians and Yemenis, no?

  51. POSTED BY deadeye  |  February 11, 2011 @ 9:49 am

    Why do I hear the twilight zone music playing in the background when I read atia2’s post?
    Deer are managed to procreate at a higher rate? What malarky. Read my Cornell link above.

    Now go back and read the revision to the original story. The traumatized motorist that originally witnessed the frantic stampede of these noble creatures as they fled for their lives was dead wrong. Nothing to hyperventilate about here. What she (I’m assuming) just experienced was a group of deer running into traffic, plain and simple. That is the root of the problem. Good thing it didn’t happen on a dark road at 60 mph, the likely outcomes of which are a totalled car, a trip to the hospital, and a dramatically altered view of the deer/human/automobile dynamic.

    Nice video Spiro, BTW.

    Now, no more ridiculous comments that I feel compelled to respond to, so I can get some work done today.

  52. POSTED BY DagT  |  February 11, 2011 @ 10:41 am

    Spiro Wonderful video and may I suggest that no ones knows about the emotions of fetuses.

  53. POSTED BY samantha123  |  February 11, 2011 @ 11:27 am

    To rubberchix

    You are very misinformed. I have pictures taken after one day of last year’s hunt in Hilltop where there is buckshot on a tree that is directly toward the million dollar homes on Fairview Avenue.
    We are lied to and some of you believe the lies which is sad.


  54. POSTED BY samantha123  |  February 11, 2011 @ 11:29 am

    to hansmeier… you are misinformed as well. The Brooklyn Botanic Gardens just completed a 20 year study within 50 miles of the Gardens and are having the same problems we are having… and they are not blaming the deer.
    Are there deer in Brooklyn?

  55. POSTED BY samantha123  |  February 11, 2011 @ 11:29 am

    to herbeverschmel

  56. POSTED BY samantha123  |  February 11, 2011 @ 11:31 am

    to herbeverschmel…. how do you know what those against the deer hunt feel or think about abortion? How do you make these ridiculous comments…. you must be one of Joe D’s jerks.

  57. POSTED BY samantha123  |  February 11, 2011 @ 11:34 am

    to Sandy.. the fact that a woman died because of a deer jumping in front of her car is sad, but a child being killed by a hunter while sitting in her grandmother’s house is just as sad. Or my sister being shot in the head in the bathroom of her home. Guns are more dangers than deer.

  58. POSTED BY samantha123  |  February 11, 2011 @ 11:37 am

    hansmeier.. again, you don’t know what you are talking about. Deer are not caught in a net, they are tranquilized. The entire process costs $600 per deer and it has been proven through a FIVE YEAR STATE PILOT PROGRAM USING GONA-CON AND SPAY-VAC. PLEASE GET YOUR FACTS STRAIGHT.


  59. POSTED BY johnny5  |  February 11, 2011 @ 11:50 am

    Karen, I’m sorry, but you’re citing the stress and fear caused in other deer as a reason for the hunt being inhumane? Give me a break. Unless you are the world’s first deer psychiatrist, how in Bambi’s name do you know anything about how a deer is “feeling”?

  60. POSTED BY Hildy Fox  |  February 11, 2011 @ 11:53 am

    Feelings are important, Johnny. How do you feel about the deer being shot? Does it bother you? Why? When in the movie did you start resenting Bambi and identifying with the hunters? Contact me off-line if you want the name of a good shrink.

  61. POSTED BY Hildy Fox  |  February 11, 2011 @ 11:55 am

    Shhh! Nobody say anything stupid. The beaches are crowded and deadeye needs to concentrate.

  62. POSTED BY Spiro T. Quayle  |  February 11, 2011 @ 12:04 pm

    Rest assured, johnny5, should Karen or someone else in fact turn out to be a “deer psychiatrist”, and thoroughly research this topic, and then proceed to publish meticulous, annotated proof that the deer do in fact have emotions, it wouldn’t change too many human minds. Both sides would simply dig their heels in.
    In fact, some hunters will likely accuse Karen of being some kind of nut, simply for ruining their fun. Then the manufacturers of hunting gear and hunting knives will band together with a handful of flat-earthers, and organize a lobby, and claim that Karen is one more reason Americans are losing their jobs, and that science, once again, cannot be trusted.

  63. POSTED BY deadeye  |  February 11, 2011 @ 12:14 pm

    samantha123: A woman killed because a deer jumped in front of her car is not merely “sad,” it is tragic. It is a tragedy for her, her family, friends, and EMS first responders. The range of emotions is on an entirely different order of magnitude than the death of an animal, even a treasured pet. Also, it is preventable by managing the deer population.

    While, tragically again, innocent people have been killed in gang infested crime ridden areas, that has very little to do with the price of tea in China, as they say. No one is going to be killed in their homes as a result of the deer cull. The chance of someone being killed in their home in West Orange or Verona by a bullet through the window is about on par with one’s chance of being hit by a meteor on the way to work.

    And, nobody is going to spend $600/deer on some sort of sterilization program. There are already too many of them. In case you are weak on math, that means that the desired result is fewer deer, not neutered deer jumping into traffic.

  64. POSTED BY deadeye  |  February 11, 2011 @ 12:22 pm

    Come to think of it, if a bunch of enviro do-gooders were coming to neuter me, I would most likely become extremely agitated and more less likely to cross at the crosswalk.

  65. POSTED BY Nellie  |  February 11, 2011 @ 1:12 pm

    @M. English..I wish you had won the election. We would not be having this discussion.

  66. POSTED BY croiagusanam  |  February 11, 2011 @ 2:36 pm

    deadeye, it is not just the operators of automobiles who are in danger from these beasts.

    Even those who eschew automotive transport, and remain unswervingly within Baristaville’s designated bicycle lanes, may still meet with misfortune:

  67. POSTED BY Hildy Fox  |  February 11, 2011 @ 2:41 pm

    Croi, you are a nut. (That’s a compliment.)

  68. POSTED BY deadeye  |  February 11, 2011 @ 3:04 pm

    Only a matter of time before something like this happened. And the tragic cyclist’s momentum continues to carry him forward despite the loss of his head.

  69. POSTED BY deadeye  |  February 11, 2011 @ 3:17 pm

    This could go a long way toward explaining the deer’s errant behavior.

  70. POSTED BY Kevin57  |  February 11, 2011 @ 3:20 pm

    I got a good chuckle out of that Deadeye!

  71. POSTED BY croiagusanam  |  February 11, 2011 @ 3:39 pm

    Its just as Mayor Bloomberg said. Those deer are Irish.

  72. POSTED BY deadeye  |  February 11, 2011 @ 3:41 pm

    Now, reading through some of the heated exchanges on this thread provoked me to do a little research on our forest friends. It would seem that harassing motorists and cyclists is only the tip of the iceberg. Here are some examples of what may lay in store if we don’t confront this menace:











    However, It is good to know that more humane remedies have actually been sanctioned.


  73. POSTED BY nboney1815  |  February 11, 2011 @ 3:42 pm


    Just as an aside, referencing the $600 per deer price for sterilization mentioned above, that program would cost at least $78 million. Based on the chart in the link below there were roughly 130,000 (very rough estimate) deer in NJ as of 2006.

    I am CERTAIN that NJ has a spare $78 million just laying around somewhere. If not, let’s just tax all those evil rich folk in Upper Montclair. Screw them and their money-making, job-creating schemes.

    Of course, a higher estimate of the current deer population is 200,000, which would amount to a cost of at least $120,000,000. Chump change. Assuming your price of $600 is accurate, which is doubtful.

  74. POSTED BY profwilliams  |  February 11, 2011 @ 3:53 pm


    We, the citizens of the Borough of UPPER Montclair are taxed enough. We are also smart enough to know that these beasts carry a horrible tick that has ruin one too many Summers. So perhaps, those from the Township of Montclair can pay for it themselves. Their schemes- pedestrian walks, new schools when none are needed- don’t even pretend to create jobs.

    btw: We’ll take our wolves in Brookdale.

  75. POSTED BY croiagusanam  |  February 11, 2011 @ 4:08 pm

    Sometimes, it really does just boil down to luck I guess. It is unlucky to be born a deer in densely populated Essex county, just as I suppose it is unlucky to be a menhaden when the blues are running. I really do not get the whole “humans and animals are the same” argument. They’re not. These creatures are inhabiting a space that cannot support such a large population, and that’s all there is to it.

    Nature makes certain that a balance is maintained, and in this case I would argue that this culling is one more example of that.

  76. POSTED BY ipsofacto  |  February 11, 2011 @ 6:03 pm

    nboney1815 -do you even read the links you post?
    From your same source:
    “The size of the deer herd is managed through controlled sport hunting. The goal is to maintain healthy deer populations at a density tolerable to New Jersey residents, and to maximize the recreational and economic benefits derived from this renewable natural resource.”

    This one phrase pretty much sums up what this issue is all about. Had to read this a few times to truly appreciate the goal. Missed the part about deer being a danger to humans and causing great economic loss.
    Thank you so much for directing me to this.

    The direct County cost of hunting is about $250/head per Joey D. The indirect County costs are almost equal to that. Add in the State F&W costs, and the total cost per head is well over $1000. If you are going to enter the world of numbers, do a little more work than taking whatever suits your fancy from the first page of your Google search.
    As far as the Cornell Extension study, they have studies that show both sides. It just depends on who is funding the study and hiring your TA later. Right now, government has most favored status. Do you want to guess how many Cornell Extension graduates are employed by the State of NJ?

  77. POSTED BY samantha123  |  February 11, 2011 @ 9:17 pm

    to ipsofacto…. The deer hunt at 12/31/2010 cost the taxpayers of Essex County more than $370,000. It is much more than $1,000 per deer. Joe Divincenzo continues to lie to the public and, unfortunately, most people believe him. I would like you to provide me with the proof that the hunt/slaughter cost only $250 per deer. I have proof of just the opposite.
    We had aerial surveys, food for the hunters, the signage, overtime for the sheriff’s department, overtime for the parks department employees, overtime for the local cops (not included in my total), transporting the deer, butchering the deer, these are just a few of the costs.
    Why not give yourself some credibility and get a breakdown of the costs from Joey, and we can compare…973 857 3922

  78. POSTED BY samantha123  |  February 11, 2011 @ 9:26 pm

    to deadeye… what inoculation means is less pregnancies and less deer.
    The program in Union by the “wildlife expert” with the degree in Anthropology hired by Joe D and his cast of characters, has had a hunt in Union for more than 15 years, what has it accomplished? more killing and more tax dollars spent, when inoculation would have eliminated the need for the killing and saved tax dollars. Did you ever take an ecology course? sounds as if you did not.

    With regard to the deer/auto accident, again, I repeat, look at the statistics, more people are killed by guns in NJ than by deer, more people are killed as pedestrians than are killed by deer. Deer/car accidents increase tremendously during hunting season when deer are running for their lives as they did in Verona and last year in North Caldwell. And reflectors work, yet we have not one in Verona or Cedar Grove…. and with regard to the real reason for the slaughter.. people, especially in North Caldwell want their plants and don’t want to put in deer unfriendly plants, nor do they want to install fencing. Their town meetings – I read three years worth – went from installing fencing to killing the deer, with no other option in between. And Joey and Mel Levine are good buddies.
    Please please do yourself a favor a print facts.


  79. POSTED BY samantha123  |  February 11, 2011 @ 9:31 pm

    to n boney I am not talking about inoculating the deer in the entire State of NJ. I am talking about the remaining deer in Hilltop, Eagle Rock and South Mountain and by the last State report there are not that many and it is certainly more efficient to inoculate than kill. IF the inoculation was done last year, there would not have been a need for another hunt and more tax dollar spent this year. Non-lethal methods should always be tried before using lethal methods…especially in an area as dense as Hilltop and Eagle Rock.
    You are obviously either one of the hunters, or one of Joey’s friends, which are one and the same as your comments are made without merit.

  80. POSTED BY samantha123  |  February 11, 2011 @ 9:32 pm

    to n boney I am not talking about inoculating the deer in the entire State of NJ. I am talking about the remaining deer in Hilltop, Eagle Rock and South Mountain and by the last State report there are not that many and it is certainly more efficient to inoculate than kill. IF the inoculation was done last year, there would not have been a need for another hunt and more tax dollars spent this year. Non-lethal methods should always be tried before using lethal methods…especially in an area as dense as Hilltop and Eagle Rock.
    You are obviously either one of the hunters, or one of Joey’s friends, which are one and the same as your comments are made without merit.

  81. POSTED BY samantha123  |  February 11, 2011 @ 9:41 pm

    to Nellie.. Thank you. I would have won if (a) people voted (b) people knew the facts and understood them and believed them (c) the dead did not vote a few times and (d) we had more money to get my name out there. I could have saved $25 million without cutting jobs. But this year, we will, hopefully, have a change in the Freeholder Board..they approved the spending…and they are all up for re-election and I know of one good person running. If I have to run, I will. I will continue to uncover the money that is being spent on Joe DiVincenzo’s friends and family and the family of Kevin O’toole, who by the way, sponsored the bill so Joe D could kill the deer without approval of the towns. And Kevin did no research, he actually used the State application as his basis. Just look at the contracts, some of the donors give to both Joey D and Kevin O’toole.. as I said, we have one party in Essex County, the Demreps. And happily, my Money tree is going statewide and will be joined by the contract tree and the donor tree. Hopefully, people will attempt to educate themselves and want to know where their money is going. And, hopefully, the corruption will not continue and Joe D will be indicted. And he deserves that for his murders.

  82. POSTED BY croiagusanam  |  February 11, 2011 @ 10:17 pm


    I guess I need to get out of this discussion.

    If this is murder, what was 9/11? The Holocaust?

    Please, enlighten me.

  83. POSTED BY phillysue  |  February 12, 2011 @ 1:40 pm

    The inhumanity of the “deer management” program in NJ is a disgrace. NJ can be put at the top of the list for cruel and barbaric treatment of animals. Our legislators should hang their heads in shame!

  84. POSTED BY deadeye  |  February 12, 2011 @ 2:08 pm

    “Behind every argument is someone’s ignorance.” Louis Brandeis

  85. POSTED BY samantha123  |  February 16, 2011 @ 8:39 pm

    to rubberchix.. the hunters are not in a tree stand shooting down. If you would like to meet me I will show you the pictures of the buckshot on a tree and it is evident that the shot was made lateral toward the residences on Fairview Avenue in Verona. The deer are not starving, I have pictures of them as well. I don’t remember seeing any wolves in Verona, but if there are, or any other predators, they are natural predators and that is basic ecology. Nature will take care of itself. The deer are not the issue, they don’t have lyme disease and deer reflectors work, but I do not see any in Verona or Cedar Grove and inoculation does work and has been proven in New Jersey. Read, research and please know your facts. thank you

  86. POSTED BY samantha123  |  February 16, 2011 @ 8:40 pm

    to hrhppg. I have not seen one thin deer… even in this weather..with the amount of snow so I must be missing something.. or perhaps you are another parks/plant person thinking it is okay to kill wildlife to spend money on plants

  87. POSTED BY samantha123  |  February 16, 2011 @ 8:52 pm

    to dane.. the deer don’t have lyme disease.. birds do.. research the issue, mice do as well, any ground animal/rodent could have lyme disease, but deer do not. Another incorrect spin/lie from the County Executive who misrepresents the facts just to get what he wants.. and unfortunately, people are either too “busy” or too “apathetic” or “self-absorbed” to research for themselves.

  88. POSTED BY Nellie  |  February 16, 2011 @ 9:12 pm

    what inoculation means is less pregnancies and less deer.

    Yes, samantha123, this is the whole crux of the argument. With sterilization, you solve the problem instead of putting a Band-Aid on it. And you’re humane at the same time.

  89. POSTED BY croiagusanam  |  February 16, 2011 @ 10:18 pm

    “the deer don’t have lyme disease..”

  90. POSTED BY herbeverschmel  |  February 17, 2011 @ 7:32 am

    True ‘deer don’t have Lyme disease’

    However, Deer give the tick a place to mate. It also is a major supplier of blood for the female tick for her eggs. Deer are vital for the ticks to reproduce.

    The deer population has increased dramatically in the country over the past 80 oir so years and the so have the cases of Lyme disease.

    I heard a few years back there was an island off Maine in which I beleive 15% of their residents had Lymes, they removed every deer and now that rate is 0.

    So there is a direct link to deer and lymes. P

  91. POSTED BY croiagusanam  |  February 17, 2011 @ 8:24 am

    Just a hunch, but I’m guessing that is why they are called “deer ticks”.

    Unless maybe they’re real cute and cuddly too.

  92. POSTED BY doglover  |  February 17, 2011 @ 8:43 am

    I’m glad finally someone brought up the subject of Lyme disease in regard to this. I caught Lyme disease right here in my own backyard. I can’t express enough to you how terrible this disease is and it’s after effects can be. I laughed at my doctor when she suspected I had it. “I don’t go hiking in the woods” I said…, you now can catch it in Montclair, Glen Ridge, Caldwell, Bloomfield, etc. in your own backyard. The doctors state that it is growing rapidly in Essex County. Yes, we do have other animals that carry it like birds, mice, and rabbits, but I tend to think that the growing deer population coming into our areas have brought it here.

  93. POSTED BY Conan  |  February 17, 2011 @ 9:46 am

    “…the deer don’t have lyme disease.”

    And my ex-wife didn’t have ulcers, but she was a carrier.

  94. POSTED BY Nellie  |  February 17, 2011 @ 9:51 am

    But if you’re worried Lyme disease and deer ticks, a hunt will not solve the problem because the deer will just re-breed. Sterilization is the only method that solves the problem long-term…

  95. POSTED BY Right of Center  |  February 17, 2011 @ 9:56 am

    We’re broke. It’s cheaper to shoot the deer. Shoot the deer.

  96. POSTED BY Spiro T. Quayle  |  February 17, 2011 @ 10:32 am

    Elegant approach, ROC, very adaptable.
    We’re broke. It’s cheaper to let the building burn down. Let it burn.
    We’re broke. It’s cheaper to let the roads fall apart. Let them fall apart.

  97. POSTED BY nboney1815  |  February 17, 2011 @ 11:04 am

    Spiro, that’s exactly what happens when societies breakdown . . . everything falls apart.

  98. POSTED BY herbeverschmel  |  February 17, 2011 @ 11:27 am

    Yup, and things seem to be breaking down a lot quicker the past 2 years, hummmmmm.

  99. POSTED BY samantha123  |  February 17, 2011 @ 7:31 pm

    to doglover.. A woman living in Orange her entire life, never went camping, never went in the woods, never saw a deeer and contracted lyme disease from a mouse…Do you have a bird feeder in your yard?

    You can obtain a copy of the October 8, 2008 West Orange Council meeting for her comments if you would like back up….

  100. POSTED BY samantha123  |  February 17, 2011 @ 7:36 pm

    to deadeye.. do you have any idea how much these deer kills have cost us? Obviously not or you would not make stupid uneducated comments. More than $600 per deer. And yes, a person can be killed in their home by “culling” deer, it happened in NYS when a 4 year old was killed in her grandparents home while sitting in a chair by the window. The hunter was shooting at deer. You sound like a buddy of Joe D’s.. the lies keep coming. Can’t wait until our taxes go sky high then I can say “I told you so” to all of you who refuse to believe the truth.

  101. POSTED BY samantha123  |  February 17, 2011 @ 7:40 pm

    to criuagysanam… comparing slaughtering humans to deer is good.. a slaughter is a slaughter and unacceptable under any circumstances….life is life…. for you to believe one is inferior to the other is narrow minded. We are not killing these deer because we are starving and need food.. this slaughter is so Joe D can give his donors money to put in plants……read the facts. Do you have a copy of the donation list and the contracts extended by our tax dollars?

  102. POSTED BY samantha123  |  February 17, 2011 @ 7:41 pm

    right of center.. yes we are broke and shooting the deer is costing us more than inoculating them… read the facts, educate yourself… do your family a favor

  103. POSTED BY deadeye  |  February 17, 2011 @ 8:05 pm

    Dear Samantha, They don’t use high powered rifles in NJ, such as the 30-30, or the 30-06. They use shotguns with deer slugs. Not nearly as accurate, but nowhere near the range or firepower. Now, think for a minute. If it costs $600 to shoot them, how can it possibly cost anything close that to tranquilize and give them birth control? My suggestion to you is to don a camel hair coat and a white hat and mittens, and go wave at the hunters.

  104. POSTED BY croiagusanam  |  February 17, 2011 @ 10:24 pm

    samantha, though I usually try to avoid conversing with idiots sometimes I get sucked in.

    Some lives are “inferior” to others. Deer are not on level with human beings. Period. If you wish to believe that the life of a cockroach or a kestrel or a salamander is equal to that of a human being, I can only thank God that I’m not in your care.

    As far as educating oneself, as you suggested to deadeye, it would appear that your ridiculous assertion regarding deer and lyme disease argues strongly for you to begin this “education” process at home.

  105. POSTED BY ipsofacto  |  February 17, 2011 @ 11:35 pm

    We’re all over-compensating for something…give S123 a break. For all your education and intelligence, you resort to calling her an idiot?
    That’s all you got? That’s it? Well done!

  106. POSTED BY croiagusanam  |  February 18, 2011 @ 7:00 am

    How patronizing, ipso. Here you are, swooping in to protect the “over-compensating” (whatever you mean by that) S123. How noble!

    S123 seems to have had no hesitation in calling other posters (ROC, deadeye, etc.) uneducated, ignorant, and the like. I guess I come from that old school which taught that if you’d like to dish it out, you’d best be ready to take it.

    And if “idiot” doesn’t describe someone who believes that human lives are on par with deer and squirrels and the like, then please supply another word and insert it where appropriate.

  107. POSTED BY Spiro T. Quayle  |  February 18, 2011 @ 7:51 am

    POSTED BY herbeverschmel
    “Yup, and things seem to be breaking down a lot quicker the past 2 years, hummmmmm.

    Actually, NYC is doing rather well, herb, especially compared to suburban infrastructure. The new parks are terrific, and, as i walked through Tribeca yesterday, I saw crews filling potholes nicely. Not to mention, home prices ( at 1000/ sq ft in Tribeca) are not crashing like they are elsewhere. And wildlife is returning ( I should say this to tie into this thread)
    But, I know you long for the good old days. –I’m sure the freshmen congressmen are.

  108. POSTED BY herbeverschmel  |  February 18, 2011 @ 8:45 am

    A staggering 25,000 people filed for unemployment for first time this week.

    For some reason I don’t think any of them care about a pothole in Tribeca.

  109. POSTED BY croiagusanam  |  February 18, 2011 @ 8:47 am

    Oh you’re right, herb! The last 2 years have seen the beginning of the end for America!

    Let me join you:

  110. POSTED BY croiagusanam  |  February 18, 2011 @ 8:51 am

    Of course, those additional 25,000 filings came one week after the lowest number in the past three years. But I guess you don’t feel that that fact is worth noting.

  111. POSTED BY doglover  |  February 18, 2011 @ 8:54 am

    to samantha……no I don’t have a bird feeder in my backyard. And just what you stated about the women in Orange that contracted Lyme in her backyard from a mouse, I’m sure is true as that is what I said also (maybe read my comment again). And sorry, I don’t have time to go to another sight and read documentation, I have to leave now to go to the infusion center for my daily IV of antibiotics for Lyme. Have a nice day!

  112. POSTED BY Spiro T. Quayle  |  February 18, 2011 @ 9:01 am

    Herb, I was visiting a cousin of mine yesterday. His office is in Tribeca, near those potholes, and also near that great new waterfront park they built by the ferry terminal.

    He told me that in his line of work (architecture), he can pull together a set of drawings for a large hospital with just a handful of computers with powerful software, a band of 20 somethings fresh out of college and a job leader in his 30’s.
    He explained that he needed twice the manpower in earlier days. There was no one over 35 in the entire office except him, and he’s in his 60’s. So where do the 40something and 50something architects go? To the unemployment office, just like you say.

    I am sure this is the case in many different lines of work, maybe even yours.

    Your statistic does not surprise me.

  113. POSTED BY herbeverschmel  |  February 18, 2011 @ 9:45 am

    spiro, now I’m really depressed. I guess I gotta keep playing Lotto.

    I was in Tribeca last night…. Walkers. I love that place , talk about a good burger. Another great place in Tribeca I highly recommend is Landmarc. There is one uptown but the one on W. Broadway is better.

  114. POSTED BY herbeverschmel  |  February 18, 2011 @ 10:05 am


    Weekly Jobless Claims are 410,000, up 25,000 this week. This is a moving 4 week average. The 25,000 number is a huge number. The claims the week before you mentioned has been dismissed by many because they believe bad weather over a lot of the country that week played a major part in the reduction in claims. I think the 25,000 number this week can be indicative of that so it may lie somewhere in between. Either way if you were to average the 2 weeks its still much higher then usual and going in the wrong direction.

    BTW- I’m tired and hungover so I’m not in for a battle.


  115. POSTED BY ipsofacto  |  February 18, 2011 @ 10:07 am


  116. POSTED BY DagT  |  February 18, 2011 @ 10:13 am

    @Spiro and herb. Did you see Watson’s win on Jeopardy? Informational processing and it’s application to the world of medicine and work force is being taken to a level that most of us can’t even comprehend. I’m excited and optimistic. It’s a brave new world.

    Love that park Spiro one of my favorite spots in NYC.

    Oh and about this thread. People first!

  117. POSTED BY croiagusanam  |  February 18, 2011 @ 10:15 am

    herb, in March of 2009 jobless claims were ate 650,000.
    So while ANYONE who is out of work represents a tragedy, I would say that after a prolonged period of heading in the wrong direction, we are now starting to see movement in the right direction.

    I don’t want to “battle” either. I do get weary, though, listening to the same old talking points.

    @ipso, your cryptic style eludes me. But, well done (I think)!

  118. POSTED BY Nellie  |  February 18, 2011 @ 10:23 am

    Showing compassion for animals doesn’t preclude showing the same for humans. Sterlization addresses all the “people” issues brought up here…in fact, it would make the landscape safer for people long-term.

    It is wrong to call samantha123 an idiot because she feels passionately on this topic. For an independent, she garnered a good number of votes in the election against Joe D., so there are people out there who believe in her.

  119. POSTED BY lasermike027  |  February 18, 2011 @ 10:32 am

    “herb, in March of 2009 jobless claims were ate 650,000.
    So while ANYONE who is out of work represents a tragedy, I would say that after a prolonged period of heading in the wrong direction, we are now starting to see movement in the right direction.”

    In march of 2009 the unemployment rate was around 5.5% Now? 9%. (after a trillion in “stimulus”!)

    Happy Days are here again!

  120. POSTED BY kyle41181  |  February 18, 2011 @ 10:41 am


    “So where do the 40something and 50something architects go?”
    Yes, to the unemployment line, or the find a new profession!

    To quote Joseph Engelberger, the “father of modern robots”

    “The prime issue in justifying a robot is labor displacement… The key motivation is the saving of labor costs by supplanting a robot with human labor”

    Technology advancement is a fact of life in a Capitalistic society, and takes no consideration of the workers it displaces. Sometimes the truth hurts, and what someone thought was once a secure profession is no longer.

  121. POSTED BY croiagusanam  |  February 18, 2011 @ 10:45 am

    I did not call s123 and idiot because she “feels passionately on this or any other subject.

    However, she wrote that “life is life… for you to believe that one is inferior to another is narrow-minded”.

    THAT is idiocy. Passion is fine — as a matter of fact its great. But putting human beings on par with deer is idiocy.

  122. POSTED BY croiagusanam  |  February 18, 2011 @ 10:52 am

    laser, in March of 2009 the unemployment rate was 8.5%.

  123. POSTED BY Spiro T. Quayle  |  February 18, 2011 @ 10:52 am

    DagT, a project my architect cousin and his plugged-in crew of 20 somethings is working on right now is a genome decoding facility in Nashville. Talk about a brave new world…..And yes, that park is great.

  124. POSTED BY deadeye  |  February 18, 2011 @ 10:58 am

    One can indeed contract Lyme from a mouse, or more correctly from a flea that the mouse was carrying. Fleas, ticks, mice and deer basically form the cycle. Deer spread the ticks which no one will argue are the main cause of the spread of the disease to humans. I’ve had Lyme, but I spend lots of time in the country. I’ve also found the virtually microscopic tick larvae, the one’s that spread the disease, on myself, my son, and my dog.
    Now, Samantha is an intolerant nitwit that has some sort of bizarre fixation on “Joe D.” If she hadn’t blithely called everyone else stuck in this increasingly idiotic debate “stupid, uneducated, etc., she wouldn’t have gotten the degree of focus that she has garnered on her own untenable positions.

  125. POSTED BY Nellie  |  February 18, 2011 @ 11:15 am

    well, cro, the cruelty that hurts me the most is that inflicted on the elderly, children, and animals. In each case, you are going after the most vulnerable among us.

  126. POSTED BY croiagusanam  |  February 18, 2011 @ 11:24 am

    Cruelty is pretty awful regardless of which population is on the receiving end. Those who have designed this program for controlling the deer population have done so in the belief that it is a humane and effective and cost-efficient way to address the problem. You and others may disagree, and you and others may be correct. But to start telling others that they are deliberately cruel and stupid and uneducated is not the way to go. And to insist that a deer’s life is as equally important as, say, a child’s life is just lunacy. Pushing such views calls one’s whole premise into question.

  127. POSTED BY Kevin57  |  February 18, 2011 @ 3:16 pm

    Did S123 really run for office?

  128. POSTED BY Nellie  |  February 18, 2011 @ 3:20 pm

    @Kevin57, Yes!

  129. POSTED BY Mrs Martta  |  February 18, 2011 @ 3:33 pm

    What if someone called for a proposal to round up all convicted felons (I am thinking in the same league as Joshua Komisarjevsky and Steven Hayes) so that they can be shot by some of the best sharp shooters around? People would be outraged (rightfully so), no matter how heinous the crimes committed, because we are supposed to be humane in our laws.

    So why can’t we extend some of that humanity to innocent creatures?

    I am not anti-hunting and I am not saying that the deer population does not need to be controlled. I am just saying that as a “progressive,” humane society, what kind of example does this set? There are better, more efficient ways to deal with this problem than shooting.

  130. POSTED BY croiagusanam  |  February 18, 2011 @ 3:38 pm

    Again, humans (even criminals) are not deer. There is no comparison. Otherwise, why not just make burgers out of the bad guys? Or are cows “less than” deer?
    If there is a more humane and practical method, what is it?

    Besides, I’ve seen the hunt underway, and it appears that these guys are quite professional:

  131. POSTED BY Mrs Martta  |  February 18, 2011 @ 3:43 pm

    The common denominator, Cro, is that they are living beings, for which a progressive society should have respect.

  132. POSTED BY Nellie  |  February 18, 2011 @ 3:51 pm

    Otherwise, why not just make burgers out of the bad guys?

    Then a new place could open up in Montclair: Felon Burger

  133. POSTED BY croiagusanam  |  February 18, 2011 @ 3:52 pm

    By all means, all creatures are deserving of “respect”, though I might choose another word. I don’t, for example, “respect” a grub, though I understand its place in the grand scheme.
    But again, if we acknowledge that there is a problem with the deer population, which seems to be generally accepted, what is the best way to manage it? Do funds exist to sterilize? Is there a sufficient number of people trained to do this? How much would it cost? Where would the money come from? What would have to be eliminated in order to pay for it?

  134. POSTED BY Mrs Martta  |  February 18, 2011 @ 3:53 pm

    LOL, Nellie!

    As for donating the deer meat to the needy: Keep in mind that a lot of these deer (such as the ones that frequent my nabe) feed on vegetation that has been treated with pesticides and other chemcials (think golf courses, office parks). Not suitable for human consumption.

  135. POSTED BY Nellie  |  February 18, 2011 @ 3:56 pm

    Seriously, cro, no one is disputing that a human being is a higher form of life. But that doesn’t mean we shouldn’t show respect for living, breathing creatures on a lower rung of the ladder…

    I know my cats feel fear and pain; because they are not “Humans,” should I disregrard that?

  136. POSTED BY croiagusanam  |  February 18, 2011 @ 4:01 pm

    Actually nellie, S123 DID dispute that humans are a higher form of life. That’s what started this whole thing.
    And of course your cats pain and fear is real. I have had dogs all of my life (not the same ones!), and have 2 now. One is 13 years old, and has been a loyal companion all of his life. But is S123 asking me to state that he is as precious as my grandchildren? Ridiculous!

    However, I DO think you’re on to something with Felon Burger, and I would be willing to invest in the concept. I’ve already found a manager/chef:

  137. POSTED BY Nellie  |  February 18, 2011 @ 4:18 pm

    lol, cro

    The place could serve French Fried Felons (Yikes, that’s another whole debate.)

  138. POSTED BY Spiro T. Quayle  |  February 18, 2011 @ 4:31 pm

    Humans, animals and plants alike are just scattered fragments of God energy and God love. Nothing more, nothing less. We all are God. Deer are God, too. So are rats and deer ticks, roaches too. And so are old growth forests adjacent to local colleges, you know, the kind herbeverschmel wants to rub a saw against.

    We can eat venison ( with a nice shiraz) , and thus can be seen as God eating and drinking God. The Supreme Diety sure has a dark sense of humor.

    When we, and all our legged, finned, shelled, winged and seed laden neighbors pass on, the God energy simply leaves the corpse and disperses into God’s universe.

    After all, in the Beginning, there was only God. Then he contracted into Himself to create the Universe, in 6 days.

    Baristanet and Haband came later.

  139. POSTED BY Mrs Martta  |  February 18, 2011 @ 4:35 pm

    “Then he contracted into Himself to create the Universe, in 6 days.”

    Under budget and ahead of schedule.

  140. POSTED BY croiagusanam  |  February 18, 2011 @ 4:37 pm

    OK Spiro.

    “Make me one with everything”, as the Buddhist said to the hot dog vendor.

  141. POSTED BY Nellie  |  February 18, 2011 @ 4:37 pm

    Baristanet and Haband came later

    The Good Lord saved the best for last.

  142. POSTED BY Mrs Martta  |  February 18, 2011 @ 4:39 pm

    And He looked and He saw that it was stretch-infused.

  143. POSTED BY Nellie  |  February 18, 2011 @ 7:21 pm

    Good one, Mrs.M.

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