Protesting economic inequality and led by Montclair’s Pat Kenschaft, a group gathered at 10 a.m. this morning at Church Street and will stay out until 11:30 a.m. — as part of a local Occupy Wall Street movement.
Says Kenschaft (pictured left), “We need to tax the rich and end economic inequality because it’s killing this country.” She had handouts for those interested in more information — “Why the Occupy Movement is Good for Your Health” detailing why physical and mental health is reduced in equal societies and incidence of drug abuse, obesity and violence is lower. Kenschaft also invites the public to her next Open Organic Gardens event, on Saturday, December 10, at 56 Gordonhurst Ave., Montclair and 45 Wells Court, Bloomfield, from 2-4 p.m.
A rally to support the 99% will take place in Wayne next Saturday, November 19.
This picture could be in the dictionary by the definition of LOSERS.
Sometimes you just find yourself wishing for rain, or and outbreak of dysentary 🙂
At least they’re gone now.
If you want to wish illness on your neighbors (brain)dead, why not try spelling it correctly?
Because I don’t care enough… And they’re not my neighbors. Nyah nyah nyah!! Put that in your pipe and smoke it.
Wow, if that post doesn’t represent the right wing point of view, I don’t know what does.
An hour and a half?
Instead of name calling let’s discuss the issues facing our country and possible solutions.
The nation and the economy are in trouble….unermployment near 10%, 40 million Amnericans without health insurance….people are hurting.
The system is broken.
So let’s discuss solutions.
They look and act like Tea partiers. They were organised, well behaved and probably left Church St. cleaner than when they got there. From the pictures it looks like the Tea party is a more racially diverse group though. OWS could learn a few things from this Montclair branch.
A protest which lasted but 90 minutes? How arduous! How committed! How silly. Even the notoriously grim Engels is laughing from beyond the grave.
And this was a protest in a town where most folks’ annual property tax bills are higher than entire incomes in many oarts of both this country and Europe. And it was celebrated on a site which lavishes undue attention on pricey local restaurants. I tell ya, this here ” revolution” is an ever-so-inclusive one. Tell me, however, were such “radical” spirits as walleroo in attendance?
And Ms. Kenscahft is handing out a pamphlet which claims, utterly speciously, that the “Occupy” movement is, uh. “good” for one’s health? This after a day in which there was deadly violence in Oakland and other deaths at similar protests across America and a 78-year-old woman was pushed down stairs in Washington DC by Ms. Kenschaft’s fellow protester, a day on which actual healthcare professionals (as opposed to mere organic gardeners, however doughtily such kay wield a trowel and the latest issue of one of the Rodale magazines) were quoted as saying exactly the opposite?
I’ve often felt that Montclair, and Baristanet in particular, is overly populated by folks who apparently miss the tumult of the 60’s (even if they likely had nothing to do with such social ferment). But this morning’s sorry attempt at protest is an exceptionally foolish affirmation of that belief of mine. Right on, property tax-paying brothers and sisters, right on. See you at Fascino or Blu soon.
Ok, so the Church Street protest is hardly up there with Gandhi’s or MLk’s actions in protesting social injustice…but y’know: even if they were only out there in the cold for 90 minutes, that still takes more commitment and effort than writing snarky comments about them on a blog. And even if these people are themselves hardly the downtrodden, there’s little doubt but that a lot of folks in this country are hurting, and that income and wealth inequity are rising–the protesters cared enough to speak out publicly on a real issue. How ’bout a modicum of respect for those exercising a First Amendment right on behalf of others?
It’s absolutely fascinating. Watching the OWSers is like going back in time and watching the Russian Revolution. But while the revolutionaries knew exactly what they wanted and how to achieve it, the OWSers can’t even articulate a concrete, realistic plan. Their complaints amount to no more than juvenile whining. Perhaps that is because, whether they are smart enough to recognize it or not, the logical and historically proven conclusion to what they want, is what had existed in Soviet Russia, and currently exists in places like Cuba and Venezuela.
Those people who ran away from such places, came to this, the greatest country on God’s green earth, for the personal, religious and economic freedom and opportunity it offers to everyone. Such immigrants, and other like-minded Americans, believe in equal opportunity, not equal outcomes.
I’m not a “1 percenter”. But I thank my family and this great Country for giving me the opportunity to become a 1 percenter, and showing me that it’s possible. I WANT TO BE A ONE PERCENTER! Maybe that should be the counter-rally. “WANNABEONE”!
Do you really believe that is an attainable goal, to become a 1 percenter? If so, why aren’t there more of ’em? I guess then they would to change their name to the 2 percenters or the 3 percenters.
Yes, I think there are opportunities out there but I don’t think everyone has the opportunity to attain great wealth, for a number of reasons.
The Occupy Church Street folks have every right to be there but instead of protesting the hard-working Mom-and-Pop spirit of the Church Street merchants, why not protest the big corporations that send their work overseas or employ people for slave wages and no benefits? Or let’s start with Occupy Health Insurance in reference to the Baristanet story about the letter that many Essex County residents recently received telling them that Empire Blue Cross-Blue Shield will no longer be available in Essex County.
Everyone isn’t always going to attain everything they want. Nor is everyone going to attain all the same things.
What’s the alternative to striving for success? Striving for mediocrity? Giving up? Or striving for everyone around you to have the same car, house, and clothing as you?
I live my life, and teach my children, to continually strive for success – for what they want; not for what they’re willing to settle for, and certainly not for what someone should owe them. An integral part of this is the education and realization that you may never get there. Never. But never expect anyone to hand anything to you, either. Always be thankful, and always be grateful. And if you don’t like the situation, then that’s what the political process is for.
As for your comment about companies, it reflects either an unwillingness or inability to genuinely appreciate how the business world functions. In the alternative, this complex subject is simplified and romanticized into something more catchy, like “slave wages” and offshoring work. The greatest irony is that a tremendous amount of such activity can be remedied to align with your desires if taxes, regulations and uncertainty are removed from the equation. But that means voting for people that you likely oppose.
i now observe that within the span of one week or so, Herman Cain has derided the former Speaker of the House, Nancy Pelosi ( and senior citizen ) as a “princess”, and Deadeye has derided the articulate contributor to Baristanet, defender of free speech ( and senior citizen ) Pat Kenschaft, as a “LOSER”. Deadeye made a point of going for all caps.
Looks like the “respect your elders” clause in the Good Book is being tossed over the cliff in the name of unfettered free market pig out capitalism. We need more pepperoni pizza and prepackaged derivatives NOW.
Not that I care much for the Scriptures, but it’s clear that the money changers in the temple have won yet another round. But I support deadeye’s right to have a second home in the country. Herman might need a second home, too, if the allegations prove true.
Great post wannabe!
White liberal guilt is so cute sometimes.
speaking of derivatives, I wish there was a way to SHORT these people. Spiro you make the market, sounds like you are LONG this crowd.
My feelings on OWS have changed several times, probably from media portrayal however I have also been to zucotti park a few times. Now I am just disheartened and kind of feel bad for these people, they truly have no shot.
Well, that was clear as mud. In a perfect world, “that is what the political process is for” might work but in case you haven’t noticed, our world is very imperfect right now and the political process appears nothing more than a bush league dog-and-pony show designed to give us the impression that our voice/votes matter.
If you don’t think there’s anything wrong with sending our jobs overseas, then I really have nothing more to say here.
“See you at Fascino or Blu soon.”– cathar
“White liberal guilt is so cute sometimes.”– tedsheckler
HAHAHAAHA!!!!
“OCCUPY CHURCH STREET” is about the funniest thing I’ve read in a while.
“Spiro you make the market, sounds like you are LONG this crowd.”
stayhywhy, I’m afraid you lost me there. Could you add a verb or two? Thanks.
Perhaps the occupiers need to be reminded that when you point your finger you point 3 back at yourself. Looks like Plato’s drones are acting up…greed is a deadly sin but so are sloth and envy.
It’s probably true that most of Montclair is in the top 2%, 3%? They have no clue just like Albert G. who I knew would be spouting his hate America first BS and sure enough…calling that crooked fellow hate America firster Pelosi a princess? OMG what a horror. I could think of many things she should be called. As for the college loan crybabies they have only themselves and Sallie Mae to blame. Anyone with any brains knows that the destructoid-in-chief is now TARPING to increase the already obscene subsidies to push even more dopes into borrowing into the next huge bubble even while the OWS folk are in the very process of bursting. It’s like most of the third world who have huge college educated populations with NO JOBS. US spring is on the way.
Think Left live Right Montclair!
“Food and tax riots in 2012” Gerald Celente
algb, I see by your post that getting an education, at least in writing the English language, was not tops on your list.
Spiro, I’m sure you are as happy as I am to see our friend whatsup is back under the guise of algb.
It seems that his stint in rehab, where he learned to post before 3AM and to avoid mention of feminine products, has had some positive results. Why, he’s almost comprehensible!
Meanwhile, cathar disapproves of 90 minute demonstrations. Though I wouldn’t be at all surprised if he trudged up from the basement in order to hold a placard supporting Joe Paterno or pedophile priests for an hour and a half or so.
Mom would want him back before dark, however.
Funny that you find wannabe’s sanctimonious post so wonderful, deadeye. I can’t decide whether it’s trite or disingenuous. It is full of platitudes, though. It’s downright platitudinousl Typical for a conservative to scream the tired claim that they teach their children to work hard–personal responsibility!–while liberals teach their children to expect handouts or to be Communists. Sigh. Economists across the board agree that income inequality is unhealthy for society but it’s never really a concern for most people that work at hedge funds…I know all too well. Protect what you have–you deserve those millions because you’ve worked hard for it (or keep telling yourself that so you don’t feel the white guilt that ol’ Ted above mentions).
Funny how the OWS movement really brings out the mean and nasty side of the highly moral conservatives. And particularly amusing that wannabe states “And if you don’t like the situation, then that’s what the political process is for,”…you big dope, protesting like this is part of the political process.
Also, I like the sign about seeing corporations as people when Texas executes one. Good one!
Nobody’s denying anyone’s right to shoot for the top 1 percent, wannabe. But when they get there, they ought to pay up.
Considering how often people were on that corner protesting the war it’s about time we had a local OWS. How come no one had a sign to honk if you agree? Honking is awesome.
As for the ludicrous idea these people were like Tea Baggers, PLEASE! These signs were neither misspelled nor racist.
Frankly, I am ashamed to have deadeye and his similar sounding comrades as neighbors.
Ideology and doctrine aside, the facts speak for themselves. The 99% did not benefit at all from the productivity increase in the last 30 years. The 99% today earn less their parents (but certain products became relatively cheaper so deadeye and his comrades can continue to fool themselves). The current wealth distribution is more akin to a 3rd world country then a modern western democracy.
And finally, the cited unemployment rate of 9% is bogus as it does not truly measure the unemployment rate as its commonly understood. The real value is more likely around 20%.
I personally have nothing than the greatest respect for Pat and friends, although I might not agree with everything they say.
You have it all wrong, butterfly. Without deadeye and his ilk, we would be sheep without a shepherd. Now repeat after me:
The Trader is my shepherd,
I shall not want;
He makes me lie down in green pastures.
He leads me beside still waters;
He restores my soul.
He leads me in paths of righteousness
for His name’s sake.
Surely goodness and mercy shall follow me
all the days of my life;
and I shall dwell in the house of the
Trader forever.
Don’t protest….Do nothing!
Don’t regulate, don’t tax the poor corporations of the phony baloney “Job creators” and they’ll bring the jobs back…..?
This is just verbal blackmail from the most blatant rightwing diarretic & diatribed stoonods of the Rovian hords.
Believe this….Corporate EuroAmerica is drooling over the profits to be made in “Low cost” countries where they can play their tax free shell games.
Jobs coming back to the US?
Go get Rosetta Stone….Learn a BRIC language and jump on a boat….I hear there’s plenty of room in steerage.
“Funny how the OWS movement really brings out the mean and nasty side of the highly moral conservatives.”
And how the Tea Party brought it out in such well meaning, 99%-loving liberals.
Funny how that works.
And if some are giving lessons on protests and the political process, they might well remember that robust discussion in the public square- which include on-line communities- are also a part of it.
BTW, I’m painting my Guy Fawkes mask black, and heading to LA for the Occupy Rodeo Drive protest. Who’s with me??
Deep, honest, and polite Liberal thought at it’s finest on here.
Arnie was the only person to propose discussing real solutions. Good. And instead of name-calling, consider this:
I never took a position on offshoring labor. Actually, I’m not a fan of it. But that’s a reality that is a natural consequence of our current policies. Some people talk about other nations. Well US companies, except GE of course, have the highest corporate taxes of any nations. And taxing and regulating them further naturally causes companies to look for ways to continue to stay profitable. The Liberal solution to all evil is to raise corporate taxes still further. To wit, the Liberals’ upcoming medical device tax on corporations has caused Stryker, a major medical device manufacturer, to reduce 1000 jobs WORLDWIDE. That includes not just the jobs of Americans, but all those nasty offshore jobs, too.
https://ryortho.com/companyNews.php?news=1563_Stryker-Cutting-Around-1000-Jobs
This was not an unforeseen consequence of the tax. It was a very predictable outcome.
“For a nation to tax itself into prosperity is like a man standing in a bucket and trying to lift himself up by the handle.” – Winston Churchill
Ironically, another Liberal solution to offshoring is letting more of those “cheap-labor, off-shore” folks come into this country illegally so that they can take US jobs right here. How does one reconcile being against offshoring for cheap labor, but favoring illegal immigration because of the cheap labor it brings into the US which then displaces US workers? And don’t say no Americans want those jobs. Americans aren’t hard working? They’re too good? I could then say the same thing about the offshored jobs. No American would do them for the off-shore price.
Liberals argue that no one is denying anyone’s right to aim for the 1%, but that once they get there, they should pay up. At the same time, they ask: “Do you really believe that is an attainable goal, to become a 1 percenter? If so, why aren’t there more of ’em?” Answer: If it weren’t hard enough already, advancing the policies of more taxes and regulations make it all that much more difficult to become a 1 percenter. And if you then tax the hell out of them when they get there, you simultaneously kill the motivation for anyone to try to get there in the first place. Furthermore, the road to becoming 1% is long, difficult, financially draining, and uncertain. Thankfully, as of today, there’s still hope. But you don’t just wake up one day as a 1 percenter. If it were that easy, like winning the lottery, sure – I’d pay up.
Liberals want energy independence, reduction of the offshoring of labor, more tax revenue, and creation of US jobs. So we dump hundreds of millions, if not billions of taxpayer dollars on the solar industry that can’t naturally sustain itself, and the entire effort results in the reinforcement of oil prices, loss of our investment, reduction of US jobs from all the layoffs, consequent reduction in tax revenue, and thus more national debt. Brilliant! Alternatively, if we reduced the regulations and financial burdens on drilling, refining and transporting oil in the US, which would cost no extra money to do, we would see US jobs created overnight in this and all related industries, our oil/gas prices would drop (virtually overnight simply because of the resultant speculation in the markets), and our tax revenues increased from all the new jobs. But again, oil is the ideological enemy of Liberals. So throw out the Country with the bathwater…
Some people on this thread say: “Funny how the OWS movement really brings out the mean and nasty side of the highly moral conservatives.” Followed by: “you big dope, protesting like this is part of the political process.” This one speaks for itself.
Then there’s this antipathy from some folks to our entire political system. These are the same people who favor more taxes, regulations, and economic equality. And it’s not happening fast enough for them. So what, exactly, are they proposing? A new system? What would that be based on? What would it look like? These are the same questions posed to the OWSers. Yell all you want for the love of free speech, but can you at least articulate a coherent process for how we can get from here to where you want to go, so that we can consider it on its merits? Who do we vote for? What do we do? Up to now, it doesn’t even sound like its something doable in our democratic society.
One person wrote that they were ashamed to have conservatives as neighbors. Then move to Venezuela and surround yourself with like-minded individuals. I’m a little frightened to have such folks for neighbors.
Sorry for the long thoughts and explanations. But this “trite” stuff doesn’t fit nicely on signs.
Thanks for reading.
Keep patting yourself on your own back, wannabe. I’m not sure why you think striving for success and understanding that our government is in the pockets of special interests are mutually exclusive. What MOST Americans expect, and hope for, is not equality of outcome, but equality of opportunity. Not Venezuela or Cuba, but closer to what we had a just a few decades ago right here.
As for Pat, she is an asset to our community, she’s one of our neighbors, and as someone pointed out, she’s a senior citizen. She’s entitled to stand on Church Street and speak her mind.
As for that old DB, whatsup, well it was nice to have one less troll for a while.
Its not even Lent, but I decided to punish my self by slogging through wannabe’s turgid treatise above.
An observation, wanna — if you are aiming to join the 1% it likely will not be as the result of any sort of writing that you do.
Nevertheless, there’s the usual nonsense. Corporate tax rates, for example.
https://www.forbes.com/sites/kenrapoza/2011/09/11/slideshow-world-corporate-tax-rates-from-lowest-to-highest/
Wanna is at a loss to explain why all of this overtaxed corporations are recording record profits, or why the economy boomed when corporate tax rates were much higher. But of course, facts are for losers, as we know.
There is also the allegation that liberals support illegal immigration. Any proff of that? Of course not.
But then the funniest part, though MM is probably not amused, is the reference to her as a liberal. I hope that she was sitting down when she read that one.
Oh well. I sincerely hope that wannabe gets his/her wish and becomes filthy rich. By God, he/she desererves it, and the rest of you DO NOT!!
Well, Cro, I’m guessing MM is as “liberal” as the rest of us when it comes to her own health insurance. As for wannabe, there’s a great article in today’s Times (yes, that left wing rag!) about Romney’s days at his equity firm, Bain Capital. He made his money the old fashioned way – using other people’s money to acquire firms, extract cash, and sell them off. Oh, and if you’re guessing the outcomes, there wasn’t a lot of “job creation”, quite the opposite, although he sure made a bundle.
Prof—
“robust discussion in the public square- which include on-line communities- are also a part of it.”
I don’t disagree with the overall equation, but let’s not pretend the “public square”—where one literally stands behind their opinion—is equal to, say, a forum like this, where folks hide behind clever names and photos of dead actors to say things they would never have the nerve to say in the “public square”.
That is not censorship—it’s a practical application of the concept that not every thought in one’s head is worthy of public expression.
wannabe—
“The greatest irony is that a tremendous amount of such activity can be remedied to align with your desires if taxes, regulations and uncertainty are removed from the equation.”
—no, the greatest irony is that after all we have been thru with just the financial crash, some folks somehow think that “getting off the backs of business” will solve all our problems. the history of american business is filled with men who chose to sacrifice personal responsibility for profit.
This argument seems like nothing less than a fundamental denial of reality.
Does anyone in Montclair ever stop and do the math??? Why does everyone care about the 1%?? If you took all of their money it wouldn’t put a dent in the problem. Look at what is true…The banks: The top 25 banks employee over a million people. A tiny handful of those people did unethical trades and made a lot of money for themselves. It is a zero sum game…where did the money go? It went into the pockets of the American people in the form of undeserved mortgages, home equity loans, student loans, etc. All money that the protesters don’t want to pay back. If you live within in your means and pay your taxes you should be protesting the protesters!
Corporations: Complain about their profits all day but wait in line to buy the next Iphone…what a joke. They are supposed to make a profit and last I checked they are ones hiring people.
You want to protest something?? Protest entertainers and athletes…they make huge amounts of money and employee no one. You begrudge a CEO responsible for 20,000 jobs for making 5 million bucks but it is ok to worship someone making 25 million who only can hit a baseball or writes lyrics about slappin’ ho’s. Where is the logic??
The really wonderful thing about the OWS movement (oh, please be a movement, pleeeeez) is that it is perfectly consistent and coherent. Sure, you talk to some of the individuals and hear some pretty whacky things, and no real leaders have emerged and so forth. But the simple injustice that they are addressing, and that has festered for 30 years, is as plain as the ears on my head. For all of wannabe’s straw men and deadeye’s testosterone-fevered fantasies of being every one’s daddy, there’s no rebuttal to this basic point.
The current economic status quo–with its vast inequality of income and of opportunity, and with its bloated, inefficient, and overpriced healthcare apparatus–depresses the entrepreneurial spirit and inventive risk-taking that is supposedly one of our country’s core virtues. In other words, it is bad for business.
This should be obvious to anyone who is actually, you know, in business (as I am, and as a lot of people who support the OWS protestors are).
Yes Ms. M., I do think it is an attainable goal to be in the top one percent. The one percent starts at about $350,000. (Not that making a lot of money should be a goal in life – it takes a lot of hard work, education, and sacrifice – it’s not for everyone.
“Its not even Lent, but I decided to punish my self by slogging through wannabe’s turgid treatise above.”
HAHAHAAHAHA!!!!
This thread is killing me!!
As for a forum/blog/comment section of a website being the new public square, this isn’t a new idea. Just as Malls are considered by some States as such (I think NJ is one, though it’s too early for legal research), I believe that we’ll soon find that this is to.
I had the same reaction, prof. I was reading wannabe’s post and thinking, oh bother, do I have to respond to this point by point, and then up popped cro’s post… It’s like dragging yourself out doors to rake the leaves and realizing that the kid next door already bagged them. (Which, by the way, have never ever happened to me.)
wannabe, I’m sorry I called you a dope. But I will stand by my statement that your comment about the political process is, well, dopey.
prof, I’ve laughed at the powdered wigs of the Tea Party people but they were not my neighbors. If you don’t think that calling your neighbor a LOSER on a public website just because you don’t agree with their sign is mean, then I’m at a loss.
And back to wannabe. You’re in love with an American mythology that we are the best opportunity society in the world. Time to face the music, which is what the OWS movement is doing. Contrary to what you may believe, it’s easier to climb the socioeconomic ladder in many parts of Europe than here. Saying so is not anti-American, it’s what is needed to be said and discussed so we can hopefully effect change. Granted, our society is not as homogenous as much of Europe’s but they still do more to encourage equality. For example, 42% of American males with fathers in the bottom fifth of the earning curve stay there. Compare that to 15% for Denmark. There is an enormous wealth divide in our country and it’s only getting bigger and there is much, much less mobility. The reasons are many and complex but one thing that stands out is that US multinationals have created no new net jobs. And that our public education system is lacking compared to countries with more equality and of course there is our abysmal healthcare system. Many people fall into poverty because of medical emergencies and bills they simply cannot pay.
Sure, we do need an honest conversation about what is going on and after you let go of your dream that elbow grease is all one needs to climb the ladder, perhaps we can talk.
A strained middle-class = less $$ available for goods and services = lower profits for corporations.
A federal health-insurance program = less fear and anxiety during periods of professional transition / unemployment = higher percentage of people pursuing entrepreneurial dreams and / or educational opportunities without fearing for their families’ health and well-being during that risk-taking period.
Its really not OK to “worship” anyone on this earth, flip.
But how many jobs do you think are created by, say, the New York Yankees or Brad Pitt?
Do you think they have managers, staffs? Do you suppose that Pitt’s films employ thousands in the production and distribution of those products. Do you suppose that the Yankees employ a huge staff and that their presence is the largest economic presence in the Bronx?
Why should the player or the actor, who is after all the one that people are paying to see, not share in the wealth. The Yankees are valued at over 1.4 billion dollars. They seem to be doing OK despite paying huge salaries.
A CEO responsible for 20,000 jobs? Who? Most modern CEOs did not found their companies, and in most acses they don’t even have a background in the industry. Airline execs were CPAs. Manufacturing execs were lawyers. They are hired in most cases to “manage”, which for many means eliminate positions, cut expenses and return money to shareholders. The idea that they are there in order to “help” people is ludicrous, as is your entire post.
By the way, ‘roo, I took the liberty of washing your car and taking out your recyclables. Hope you don’t mind!
Man, you folks sure drink a lot of Stella!
Don’t get me going about CEOs, please. I saw figures recently about the ratio of CEO compensation to average workers’ pay. (You have to compare “compensation” on the one hand to “pay” on the other hand, you see, because there are far fewer forms of recompense for the average grunt than for those glorious beings who occupy the corner offices.) The ratio of CEO to worker comp is an order of magnitude higher in the U.S. than in Europe or Asia. Wanna will now argue that of course our CEOs are the best in the world yada yada yada.
Sorry, I know many of you may have just lost your eggs and sausages. My apologies. However, you really should drink Guinness for breakfast, it’s much healthier.
Don’t forget the branches, cro. There are still some big ones out in the back that we haven’t yet hauled to the front so we can pretend they’re the towns’ responsibility.
Wannabe, you might feel better thinking that those who disagree with you want an American version of Venezuela,but you’d be mistaken.
They more likely want a version of America that resembles the way it was back in 1984 when two average income professionals in their 30’s from humble beginnings could buy and fix up a $155,000 Brownstone in a marginal section of Brooklyn, rent out two floors while living on one floor, and refinance it when their hard work was done.
They would take some of the proceeds from the refinance and pay off their student loans ( since their parents could not afford college for them) . The jobs that this young couple held, the renovation work they did ( often sweat equity ) , and the resulting rents they commanded justified the monthly payment to the bank. You would see them at the local diner on Sunday morning with their clothes splattered with paint and plaster.
All the while they’d be working at their professional jobs in NYC, until their first kid was born and mom stayed home. Dad would continue to work. Maybe mom, too, if they had a woman come in to take care of the baby.
They’d hold on to the house until their plan called for selling it. At that point, they would have the beginnings of a nest egg, and their careers would probably be flourishing. They’d continue raising their kids, and send them off to college.
That house can no longer be had by today’s version of those two average income earners, of the same age and education, possessing the same skills, energy and will to succeed.
Why is this? That Brooklyn house has now wildly inflated in value to $1.5 million ( solely due to it’s proximity to Wall Street ) and is affordable only to the nouveau 1 %.
The same exact house, the same block, 25 years later, once affordable to many hard working well educated people and now to almost nobody.
Then multiply it across our nation. And wonder why OWS exists.
There is income inequality, I get that, seems to be a central theme. Let me ask the following question. What does the OWS crowd want and furthermore if they get what they want do they really think it will improve each of their personal situations?
Lets say we raise taxes on the rich, create another bracket, tax the hell out of that and keep the taxes high until the deficit is gone and then some to give the govt some spending power. Lets say we reform campaign finance and enact term limits. Lets say we further increase regulation on wall street, break up the largest banks, reverse gramm leach, and increase Tier 1 capital ratios to 18% (in practice T1 this high would not work)…..
Upon this happening do you think the elderly person with no tangible skills will find work? Do you think a well paying job with full benefits will suddenly open up for the girl who squeaked by with a 2.6 gpa and a degree in art history?
All that matters is JOBS.
It is in this manner that these protests are so misguided. If they get everything they are asking for on the front end it likely won’t change their own economic situations or create compatible jobs.
The problem is structural. We are no longer a manufacturing based society. Making a living is now a LOT harder and that is just a fact of life, we have to adjust. Its that simple.
One area govt should play a huge role is education and not in the form of loans but more targeted, more surgical. I leave you with this which is an appendix to the Oct 2011 employment report. The unemployment rate for those 25 and over with a college degree has a 4 handle with of course the highest participation rate. This is an aside to OWS of course however I think is a necessary discussion with respect to what I perceive as a structural problem.
https://www.bls.gov/news.release/empsit.t04.htm
Also if your neighbor is a loser, its ok to call him/her one, although OWS probably wants to take that word out of the English vocab because hey we are all winners!!!
StayHyphy,
Sadly its not JOBS anymore, which matters all. Jobs are actually plenty: If you want a job, I offer one for $2/hr to drive me around town if I feel like it 🙂
No, its about a supply of jobs, which pay enough to sustain a family with shelter, food, health service and education for its children across all sections of educational background and skills.
Back in the olde days when the US had a thriving manufacturing industry, it offered those jobs for unskilled manual workers as well as knowledge workers; these days are gone. The only sector which seems to grow consistently lately is the healthcare industry and this is in fact concerning as it directly implies a rise in health care costs!
I also have my doubts about this talk about the Knowledge worker and the service industry. Its not the silver bullet and its not creating jobs across the skill-spectrum as the the old manufacturing base was able to do.
Another thing I want to point out is that according to your cited statistic more than 50% of people have a college or some college/associate degree. What does this tell us about the intrinsic value of those degrees given a Gaussian distribution of the IQ?
But all these things aside, the US is in dire need of serious reform in the areas of taxation, campaign financing, education, infrastructure and its understanding of the role of government.
As its stands, neither the liberals nor the ideological comrades from the right have a common ground about those fundamental ills.
… raise taxes on the rich, create another bracket, tax the hell out of that and keep the taxes high until the deficit is gone and then some to give the govt some spending power… reform campaign finance and enact term limits… further increase regulation on wall street, break up the largest banks, reverse gramm leach, and increase Tier 1 capital ratios to 18% (in practice T1 this high would not work)…..
Deal. Where do we sign…
Making a living is now a LOT harder and that is just a fact of life
Only for the 99 percent, stay. The 1 percent are going from strength to strength.
Guassian, ooh time to put our thinking caps on. FYI, the Gaussian Copula, that’s the sort of bell shaped curve that is meant to be illustrative of a Gaussian distribution, is central to the credit models that performed so spectacularly well prior to the financial crisis. Maybe it works better with IQ distribution, but I wouldn’t bet on it.
Enjoy: https://www.wired.com/techbiz/it/magazine/17-03/wp_quant?currentPage=all
Loved the earlier post that mentioned Envy and Sloth!
I threw my 2 cents here just see how people react and how they think. All I can say is Amazing! Everyone is so jealous of the 1% and need someone to blame because they don’t have everything they want. Hate to tell you but we all have it good. Just because someone has more money doesn’t mean they have it better. I grew up in country with no student loans, limited gas, woodburning stoves, if you took your eye off of something of value it was gone, and there was no hope of getting a decent job….anyone remember the USA in the seventies?? The funny thing is the important things in life, family, friends, food, booze, and sex were just as good when nobody had a penny in their pocket…maybe better. So all you Montclair crybabies go eat your Maypo and compare your quality life and opportunities to someone in a third world country before you take to the streets…Thanks, it’s been enlightening but it’s time to go to work!
“I grew up in country with no student loans, limited gas, woodburning stoves…”
You had wood? Lucky bastard.
butterfly, i completely agree. when i say “jobs” I do indeed mean the kind that you refer to, pays the mortgage, puts food on the table, and even allows one to save a little bit each month. I dont know how one can dispute that the lack of these jobs is largely a result of the transformation from a manufacturing based economy to an economy based in services, the latter requiring less skilled labor.
roo, if making a living is harder for 99% i think we can call that a fact of life. the richest 1% will always be rich, redistributing the wealth (i am all for tax increases) does nothing to fix the structural problem and will not magically create jobs that are compatible with those with no skills or degrees in useless subject areas. combine this with the fact that we have become a lazier, entitled, instant gratification type society high levels of unemployment will persist.
and with gridlock in DC we can’t even seem to have the right debates and discussions around this structural problem. Another reason Obama (i voted for him) has to go. I will say though if anyone other than romney gets the nod i will vote for him again.
Talk about entitled, have you seen the gigantic tree limbs that people on Upper Mountain have piled up on the side of the road? They keep falling into the street, blocking traffic, almost causing accidents. I’ve got a crazy idea–cut them up yourself or pay someone to take them away!
(And I live on the street, flipside, so I’m not just “jealous of the 1%.” Amazing that rich people can be entitled, too, not just those sloths that are part of the OWS movement, isn’t it?)
deadeye wrote: ‘Maybe it works better with IQ distribution, but I wouldn’t bet on it.’
In my best DarthVader voice:
‘I find your lack of knowledge disturbing’ …
the richest 1% will always be rich..
Perhaps, stay, but how rich?
… redistributing the wealth (i am all for tax increases) does nothing to fix the structural problem and will not magically create jobs that are compatible with those with no skills or degrees in useless subject areas.
I think this assumption bears examining, stay. The key word is “nothing.” Of course taxing the rich is not a panacea. But income disparity is a fundamental structural problem, and it saps the life from society–not only does it create inefficiencies but it is demotivating. It drains talent from productive activities (say, manufacturing widgets and wingdingies) to unproductive ones (say, repackaging mortgages and selling them to suckers).
As a thought experiment, let’s think about two numbers, X and Y. We’ll say that X is the amount of money, in gazillions, that corresponds to all the extra dough that top earners have made from the growing disparities in incomes in the past 40 years–in other words, the sum total of all the money that’s shifted to top earners from the rest. Then we’ll call Y all the the dough that investment firms have made in the US over the past 40 years, adjusted for inflation. Is it even possible to come with this number? Has someone done it? I don’t know. But I wonder how close these two figs would be?
You make an excellent point that when you consider the entire world we are all in the 1 percent. That’s another discussion entirely, however.
flipside, with regard to your post, I doubt this topic can be exclusively distilled down to “crybaby” jealousy directed towards the more ostentatious members of the 1 percent club.
Perhaps some regular guys are jealous of the summer homes, fine wines and high-end shrinks that those folks seem to enjoy. Or maybe they’re livid because they can’t be among the tiny handful of benefactors who pay for and dedicate hospital wings and college cafeterias.
For most everyone else, I think it probably boils down to disgust ( with the system itself and the 1 percent beneficiaries ) and disdain for those who prosper under this lopsided system and freely waste a lot of their gains on whatever suits them. There’s probably a whole lot more of them than benefactors.
All the while, everyday people with familes, talent and drive are stuck at home, despite repetitive efforts at hitting the street, and looking for work, and offering whatever they can offer to society, to no avail.
As far as you being from some other country, welcome to America. We’re all from some other country.
Politics politics politics. Yabbity blabbity.
Hey Tluddite. Just like a Hate America Firster to bring Euro worship to the table. Europe is about to collapse under the weight of wealth redistribution. To hold up Denmark up as any kind of model is ludicrously typical. We are not Denmark which is almost a city state the size of Conn. Not even anywhere near the same orders of magnitude in size, population, ethnic diversity, etc. as the USA.
Yes, DB, I realize this and I pointed out that Europe is more homogenous.
Good to have you back for some comic relief.
“Hate America Firster.” Hee ha ha, so funny. You kill me.
aigb wrote “Europe is about to collapse under the weight of wealth redistribution.”
Huh? What kind of news sources do you read? Factually wrong blanket statements like this are not going to bring about a real discussion.
Occupy Church Street? Who the hell can afford those rents?
Did anyone else read yesterday’s front page article in the Times on Mitt Romney’s Bain Capital purchase of Dade International? His firm squeezed 8 times their original investment out of it, collecting $242 million in fees; created 1,700 layoffs while increasing jobs overseas, and quadrupled the debt of the company which drove it into bankruptcy.
That’s just what we need as president: someone who understands how business works. Someone who can apply private enterprise pragmatics to public policy.
“Did anyone else read yesterday’s front page article in the Times…”
Go figure The Times writing a negative piece on a Republican, Who’da thunk?
Waiting for it, Herb. No surprises.
“That yellow rag, The New York Times!!!”
Kit- A different take on the Bain- Dade purchase. This piece is written by University of Illinois Law professor Larry Ribstein ( OWS supporters, please refrain from Anti- Semitic comments about the author).
A long front page article in today’s NYT tries to make political hay out of Romney’s time at private equity firm Bain Capital. The article supports the White House’s efforts to, as the article says, “frame Mr. Romney’s record at Bain as evidence that he would pursue slash and burn economics and that his business career thrived by enriching the elite at the expense of the working class.”
To do this, the NYT picks one transaction, medical company Dade International, from the 150 handled by Bain during Romney’s 15-year tenure (financing Staples as a startup is mentioned in passing). The Times says the “deal shows the unintended human costs and messy financial consequences behind the brand of capitalism that Mr. Romney practiced for 15 years.” The Times summarizes the transaction as follows:
At Bain Capital’s direction, Dade quadrupled the money it owed creditors and vendors. It took steps that propelled the business toward bankruptcy. And in waves of layoffs, it cut loose 1,700 workers in the United States, including Brian and Christine Shoemaker, who lost their jobs at a plant in Westwood, Mass. Staggered, Mr. Shoemaker wondered, “How can the bean counters just come in here and say, Hey, it’s over?”
Apart from the question of whether the Dade transaction was typical, what does the Times show about the Dade transaction? Let’s review the facts in the NYT story.
In 1994, Bain led a buyout group in purchasing the Dade, which the Times describes as “ailing” and “rife with problems,” from Baxter International.
Romney himself was “quite knowledgeable about the business” according to Dade’s then CEO. The article describes how Bain imposed the discipline on Dade that was a key innovation of the private equity industry. I summarize the incentive mechanisms that private equity employed here and in Chapter 8 of Rise of the Uncorporation. The Times article suggests this is how Bain operated in running Dade:
Dade employees could always tell when Bain Capital executives were in town: their bosses worked longer hours. “The thing Bain brought was urgency,” Mr. Brightfelt [a former Dade president] said. “It was 24 hours a day. It never stopped.” At Dade’s headquarters, the men from Bain — young, nattily dressed Bostonians — exerted themselves in ways big and small as the new owners. They took a majority of seats on the board of directors. They interviewed candidates for high-level jobs. They negotiated crucial contracts with suppliers. And they requested reams of data.
This clearly wasn’t a slash-and-run takeover. Bain expanded Dade rather than just firing the workers and selling out for a profit, based on Romney’s desire to “double down on Dade.” As a result, the company
became an industry leader, just as Bain Capital had intended. With its overseas acquisition, the company’s labor force swelled to 7,400 workers. The business invested in and refined products, like a test that rapidly detects whether a heart attack has occurred, that became widely used. From 1995 to 1998, Dade’s annual sales rose to $1.3 billion from $614 million. Its assets grew to $1.5 billion from $551 million. But another number was climbing just as fast — Dade’s long-term liabilities, which surged to $816 million from $298 million.
So what’s the problem? While the article wants to make a lot of the overleveraging of Dade, during Romney’s tenure debt apparently increased in line with assets. The firm also cut some salaries. But the article doesn’t discuss aggregate salary data, just the reduction of one particular employee’s salary, and the replacement of his “generous pension plan” by a 401(k) — a common practice in industry at this time.
The biggest horror story in the article was layoffs in a plant owned by one of Dade’s acquisitions. Although the story focuses on one worker’s personal tragedy, a former Dade SVP is quoted as saying, “It’s not done because they love cutting jobs. It ultimately made those companies stronger.” If layoffs and salary cuts make the business stronger, workers as a whole can benefit even as some suffer. The owners hurt themselves if they make the business weaker by depreciating the labor force.
The article concludes with a discussion of a transaction that occurred in April, 1999, two months after Romney retired from Bain, in which “it pushed Dade to borrow hundreds of millions of dollars to buy half of Bain’s shares in the company — and half of those of its investment partners.” Romney evidently benefited from this transaction via an increase in the value of his 16.5% interest in Bain. We are not told whether he had any role in approving in the increased debt.
We learn that Dade cut more jobs in 1999, evidently after Romney had left. Three years after Romney’s departure, when Romney no longer had a financial interest in Bain, and after other events weakened Dade (increased interest rates, declining euro, delays in constructing a new distribution center), Dade filed for bankruptcy. But Dade left bankruptcy two months later and went public. In 2007 it was sold to Siemens for $7 billion — 15.5 times the price paid in 1994 for an “ailing” orphaned division of a big corporation. The article concludes with the suggestion that the “painful” layoffs “ultimately worked.”
In short, the story’s details don’t support its slant. Romney’s “brand of capitalism” seems to have worked in this instance, even if its success was colored by events that occurred after he left Bain. Although I’m not suggesting that Romney should or would run the country the way he ran Bain and Dade, I’m also not troubled by his history as a deeply invested owner and manager of Bain. True, he and the other “elites” at his firm made a lot of money. But if every deal was like Dade, it’s not clear society as a whole, including the working class, came out worse.
I understand what the OWS crowd will make of this story. But they need to persuade me why this story should make Romney look worse than the typical presidential candidate who has spent his life in politics and whose job history has consisted mainly of engineering wealth transfers from weak interest groups (e.g., taxpayers) to more powerful ones (e.g., big banks).
Gee herb, I read an awful lot of “negative” pieces about Bill Clinton, Anthony Weiner, and Charles Rangel in the NYT.
The only thing any reader should be concerned with is, are the facts accurate?
It sounds to me that you have the same sort of bias that you accuse the NYT of displaying.
“But if every deal was like Dade, it’s not clear society as a whole, including the working class, came out worse. ”
Society as a whole? Of course not. Only the 1,700 laid off, and the
vendors who had to accept a lower return on the debt they were owed in order to see any return at all, since the investors skimmed all the cash out of the company.
And you ask yourself why Wall Street & Church Street are occupied?
Well, there are other viewpoints, herb:
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/2011-07-20/romney-as-job-creator-clashes-with-bain-record-of-job-cuts.html
I hope you won’t allow anti-semitism to color your view of Bloomberg!
Kit, Sadly that’s kind of standard for how private equity deals work.
Don’t make fun of Tudlow. I may not often agree with her, but she’s a worthy debater.
Butterfly, I’m still laughing about you throwing Gaussian out there. To me it will always represent the use of mathematical sophistry to oversimplify extremely complex issues and give comfort to those who would rather choose to avoid other readily observable empirical evidence, at least as it apples to certain elements of financial modeling. If you don’t get that, you shouldn’t be questioning my lack of knowledge…read my link above.
“Sadly that’s kind of standard for how private equity deals work.”
And that’s precisely why Romney shouldn’t tout his experience as a “job creator”. Making a lot of money for oneself and one’s partners has no bearing good governance.
I get how private equity deals work, Deadeye. No need for condescension.
And Gurl put it well regarding private equity backgrounds as fitness for public office.
I am not aware that I made fun of Tudlow — who is one of my favorite posters. I did poke a bit at Herb. He deserves it.
Butterfly, In case you’ve been in a coma, Europe is groaning from the burdens of decades of entitlements and redistributive socialist policies, except the Germans. Even the historically progressive Dutch are hitting the brakes, while the wheels have come off in Greece, and Spain and Italy are trying to come to grips with the potential fallout. There are certain arcane publications that focus on these issues, like The Wall Street Journal, The Financial Times, and so forth. Pretty much everything but The Worker’s Vanguard, The Utne Reader, or Mother Jones.
You do realize that when it says “investment partners” it includes public employee pensions, charitable foundations, and school endowments that were invested in the Bain Capital funds. Those groups invest as “Limited Partners” in these funds.
No condescension implied at all Kit, and the Tudlow comment was directed at algb. To greatly oversimplify, private equity can re-position moribund companies, but the collateral damage is often lost jobs, that arguably would have been lost anyway. In a vibrant job creating economy, the workers find jobs in other industries and the net effect isn’t as devastating. Today we just need to keep people working, and create a more positive economic environment for the creation of new jobs, and those are created by private industry. This administration needs to remove the words “targeted and temporary” from it’s lexicon, remove uncertainty from the business climate, and generally get out of the way.
“And you ask yourself why Wall Street & Church Street are occupied?” -Kit
That question is right out of the suburban soccer Mom I get my news from Oprah handbook. C’mon your better than that.
Europe’s crumbling for a lot of reasons. Low cost healthcare & education are not primary reasons. The more the free market fails, the more calls there will be for greater government involvement.
I’d love to see free markets, but I’m not naive enough to think that corporations want to see them.
Deadeye, you’ll ignore this point because of its source, I’m sure, but you’re just simply wrong about the reasons for the collapse of the Eurozone.
https://krugman.blogs.nytimes.com/2011/11/10/its-not-about-welfare-states/
Germany is doing quite well, as far at the Eurozone goes. Their technology and planning leave us in the dust. Perhaps this is partially due to our 1 percenters wanting very much to buy their cars. Or perhaps our 1 percenters buy their cars because their planning and technology leave us in the dust.
Norway, while European, did not adopt the Euro, and it too is doing extremely well.
NerdHerd, that tired excuse — widening the guilt net to include institutional investors– should be be mothballed along with ‘the people who borrowed too much are also responsible for the financial meltdown,’ and ‘It’s all Frannie and Freddie’s fault.’
Do you think that individual investors in pension funds, charitable trusts, etc. know exactly what the principals in these funds are doing? Is it ever described in the prospectus? If they were told that the Bain Capital was ripping the cash out of the companies to over-compensate a handful at the top, and employees were getting fired, how many investors would choose to remain?
Besides, how sure are you that Bain Capital included these types of investors? Many of these types of funds are closed.
Good link to Bloomberg, Cro.
“Butterfly, In case you’ve been in a coma, Europe is groaning from the burdens of decades of entitlements and redistributive socialist policies, except the Germans. ”
Aside from just so badly wanting this to be true, there is NO evidence to support this theory favored by the free market uber alles crowd. There are many contributing factors. And as far as redistributive policies go, there’s an awful lot of “corporate welfare” that the free market crowd likes to ignore.
deadeye wrote: “Butterfly, In case you’ve been in a coma, Europe is groaning from the burdens of decades of entitlements and redistributive socialist policies, except the Germans.”
You are wrong über alles. The Eurozone problems are mostly caused by a very specific list of countries, which were allowed into the zone under, lets say, false pretenses or willful ignoring of the entry rules.
It did not help that these countries were throwing money out of the window, right into the coffers of financial advisers like Goldman Sachs and Co. It slso did not help that these countries using the know-how of these financial advisers to hide the true debt, while all the time continuing to increase their debts with pointless expenditures.
Being incompetent money managers is BTW not the domain of European governments whether its being conservative or socialist, just look at the Republicans and GW Bush.
Germany is a Socialist country in the eyes of many here: free college education, universal healthcare, no speed limit etc., but the truth is quite different. Its a very much capitalistic country which however has a broad consensus about the Welfare of people. Not the welfare check every month, but the understanding that the state should provide a playing field where the hard working majority of people is *faring well* and not only the 1%.
bf: I think “retarded” is considered pejorative these days, so lets just stick with “simple minded.”
Better put: ” A little knowledge is a dangerous thing…” A. Pope
Which Pope?
I am so grateful, deadeye, that you would take so much valuable time to explain the big, complex world to us simpletons, I offer this prayer:
Our Trader, which art in Wall Street,
Hallowed be thy Name.
Thy Kingdom come.
Thy will be done in earth,
As it is in Washington.
Give us this day our daily point margin.
And forgive us our selling worthless derivatives,
As we forgive those that sell us bad debt.
And lead us not into illiquidity,
But deliver us from regulation.
For thine is the kingdom,
The power, and the glory,
For ever and ever,
Or at least until the bubble bursts,
Amen.
Yes, deadeye, retarded is a big no-no. Take it from someone who has worked in human genetics.
You’re much more charming when you’re not being a meanie but thanks for sticking up for me. Much appreciated.
Alexander Pope, Now excuse me, I’m off to play the grand piano.
Praise Roo from whom all ripe mirth flows.
Praise him above all creatures here below (liz’s porch.)
Praise him above all B-net trolls.
Praise Walleroo and all he posts.
Aaaaaaamen….
Ha ha, very funny, Kit. But it’s deadeye’s doing. He makes an excellent foil. I’d be lost, like a stray lamb, without him.